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7-22-05
2 OF 2: ROB ZOMBIE << GO TO PART ONE WITH SHERRI MOON ZOMBIE DEVILS REJECTS is more NATURAL BORN KILLERS than HOUSE OF 1000 CORPSES. What made you decide to take the sequel in such a different direction? You know, I never like to criticize things because some kid will come up to me and say, “’HOUSE OF 1000 CORPSES’” is my favorite movie!” And you don’t want to hear Tobe Hooper go, “I hate TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACARE”. But at the same time, I wasn’t happy with HOUSE OF 1000 CORPSES. It didn’t work for me. It wasn’t what I set out to do. There’s moments and set pieces that are what I was going for, but overall it didn’t have the look and feel of what I had in my mind. But that’s sort of a secret that everyone keeps to themselves. I mean, every filmmaker has probably some moment of disappointment. So, really, I guess now, after your first film, as you yourself know, you have your skills a little more honed, so I really felt like this is what I want to do and that’s why I made it totally different. The main thing is, there was no where else to go the other way. I didn’t want people to come in and feel like, “Oh, here we go. 90 more minutes of the same thing.” And, you know, CORPSES really sends itself up and it’s pretty cartoonish and whacky to begin with. People always go, “Oh, it’s a CHAINSAW MASSACRE rip-off!” And I go, “Hmmm. It’s a ROCKY HORROR rip-off, isn’t it?” I mean, I always think of it as ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW with blood. So, you know, I really didn’t want to make a sequel at all. Sequels can be such disasters at times. And I just thought, essentially, I’ll make a completely different movie that just happens to have the same characters. Do you consider DEVILS REJECTS a horror film? I do and I don’t. There’s been early reviews that have been very positive, but a lot of them say, “In no way is this a horror film!” And I’m like, “Gee. When did things get to the point that something like DEVIL’S REJECTS is not a horror film?” I think a lot of times the trappings define it. Because it’s not a You have the showdown, the Sheriff in hot pursuit… Yeah. A GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY vibe. But, still, I think there are moments that are horrific, and certainly more horrific than the last movie. The skin face mask, some of the deaths and torture… I don’t know. I get real vague these days when people say, “Well, what is a horror movie and what wasn’t?” Does it literally have to have a monster? Does it have to be supernatural? Maybe that’s it. Because, for instance, if DEVIL’S REJECTS is considered a horror film, so should NATURAL BORN KILLERS. Or even a film like Steve McQueen’sTHE GETAWAY… You know, the scene in the hotel where Al Lettieri is torturing Sally Struthers’ husband? Yep. That’s very similar to the scene in the motel in DEVIL’S REJECTS where they’re Otis and Baby are torturing the two couples. So why is THE GETAWAY an action film and DEVIL’S REJECTS a horror film? And, by the way, I don’t think it’s a bad thing that people are saying DEVIL’S REJECTS is not a horror film. I don’t think so either. You know, I love horror movies, obviously. But I’m not real big on everything having to be classified. ‘Cuz then it’s like some kid going, “Oh, it’s not a horror film.” And someone else might go, “Then I’m not gonna go see it. I only like horror films.” I mean, if you like THE EXORCIST, you’re probably gonna fucking like TAXI DRIVER, too. But you’re not gonna go see TAXI DRIVER because some kid goes, “It’s not a horror film”? It’s pretty fucking horrific. So what does that mean? If it doesn’t have Jason or Freddy in it, it’s not a horror film? It is confusing. For instance, PSYCHO is considered a horror film, but Norman Bates isn’t supernatural. So does that make it a thriller? Right. And, I mean… DEVIL’S REJECTS seems like THE EXORCIST compared to PSYCHO in terms of the horror trappings. So maybe it’s a time thing. A generational thing. Maybe it also has a lot to simply do with the style of filmmaking. ‘Cuz what really blew my socks off with DEVILS REJECTS and with HOUSE OF 1000 CORPSES, no matter what you say, Rob (laughs), was their sense of style. You really showed your love and admiration of the horror genre, especially with the color schemes of CORPSES which was somuch like an Italian horror film, so Bava and Fulci.
Exactly. And then when I saw REJECTS, whereas when I think of CORPSES, I think of a kaleidoscope of colors, with REJECTS, I think of stark, good old early 70’s movies like BADLANDS, Sam Peckinpah… and I think the style is more Western, more couples on the lam in the vein of MACON COUNTY LINE, BUSTER AND BILLIE, BONNIE AND CLYDE… It totally is. Were those films influences on you? One of the films that was the biggest influence on me ever was BONNIE AND CLYDE. Really? I was obsessed with that movie as a kid. I was obsessed with monsters. I was obsessed with the Old West and Gangsters. So I would be just as excited for PLANET OF THE APES as I would be for BONNIE AND CLYDE. I must have watched it a thousand times. That’s why on the first movie I was so excited to get Michael J Pollard because he was in BONNIE AND CLYDE. So yeah, I just love movies. People go to me, “Do you think you’ll ever make a movie other than a horror movie?” And I go, “Of course!” It’s not like I just watch horror movies and I hate everything else. And I don’t know anybody who makes horror movies and only likes horror movies. You talk to John Carpenter and he loves Westerns more than anything else it seems. And then you look at John Landis who is in that Masters of Horror category, yet he’s made more comedies than horror films. So why is he more known as a Master of Horror, rather than a Master of Comedy? He’s all over the place. Your music is like that too. Very hard to categorize. Is it heavy metal? Is it industrial? It has so many styles and influences. Yeah. Early on I took the stance that “I don’t want to be labeled.” Because then you’re stuck. Nothing wrong with that, because there are certain bands that really thrive at a niche. You know, like Slayer. I mean, that’s what they do and that’s why it’s so cool. They’re that machine that they are every time you see them. But I always wanted to be all over the place so if ever I wanted to I could go, “Fuck it! I want to do a song with Lionel Richie! Who gives a shit!” Then it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t upset the apple cart of heavy metal because I never really was coming on stage like Rob Halford of Judas Priest anyway. For me, one of the most effective devices in DEVILS REJECTS, even more so than in CORPSES, was your use of music. The juxtaposition of some of these classic rock ballads like the Allman Brothers “Midnight Rambler” or Lynard Skynard’s “Freebird” against a backdrop of supreme violence. Do you think your career as a musician, as a rock star, and a very theatrical one at that, has helped you in an artistic sense as a filmmaker? Or would you have arrived at I don’t know. It’s definitely helped in terms of having given me the opportunity to direct tons of music videos. And that was more evident in the first film than in the second. I purposely wanted nothing in the second film that had any type of relation to a music video. Anyway, I think the what I gained most from the music video experiences was that you have a crew, and a fairly big budget, and it must get done in a short period of time. But still, until you make a feature, there’s no one breathing down your back going, “Look, lunch is over. Get the crew back. Let’s go. Boom boom boom.” Videos function just like movies, except over a day or two or three. But it’s a microcosm. And just being able to know how to work a crew, know a time frame, know a budget, get it done and deliver it on time… You know how it is. Filmmaking is art, but its art done with a fucking stopwatch. You gotta be able to deliver brilliant things in a second. When the Assistant Director turns to you, if you pause for more than five seconds with your answer, it feels like the whole crew is coming to a standstill. “He doesn’t know what he’s doing!” (laughs) So until you have the luxury of a 75 day shoot, you’ve got to be on your toes. So a music career, by way of music videos, helped me in that regard. True for videos. But with your songs, you can take as much time as you want. Yeah. It’s different. You can spend forever. You can write a song for a year if you want to. But also, getting back, by being in music my whole life, it really helped me have an understanding of how to make it work in a film, ‘cuz I think some directors don’t. Many clearly do, but an awful lot don’t. And there’s some way you can always tell. It’ll have that vibe that, “I just handed it off to the music supervisor and he just placed a bunch of happening new songs in it that the kids are digging these days.” It always feels really awkward. I think some of those filmmakers we were talking about, Scorcese, Penn, Peckinpah … They had that understanding of the union between music and film. Scorcese, I think, is one of the ones with the best understanding. He really knew where to place it. The mood. I mean, music supervising for me is the same as casting. A casting agency is responsible for making deals close, but come on, they don’t really cast your movie. They don’t tell you who to put in the parts. Some times people think, “Oh, they cast Sid Haig for you?” And I’m like, No. I cast Sid Haig. I cast Bill Mosley, Sherri, Karen Black, Bill Forsythe… They just closed the deal. They don’t even really know who half those guys are!” So when it came to the music in my films, music supervisors were important, but I knew what I wanted. And I just worked with some people who were really good at chasing down some expensive songs and getting them Like the films of Sam Peckinpah, like BONNIE & CLYDE, violence plays a really big part in DEVILS REJECTS, but like those films, especially THE WILD BUNCH, the violence is operatic, balletic, in many ways beautiful. And I found myself exhilarated. Now this is a question I’ve tried to answer for myself time and again and I always like to hear the response of others, so here goes. Why do you think as a culture, we have such a fascination with violence and glorify it in our films to a point of beauty? Well… For me it depends on what’s happening. In REJECTS, I always wanted the violence to feel awkward and real. When we were rehearsing the fight scenes, I told Kane Hodder, my stunt coordinator, “Kane, if this smacks of a stunt guy hitting another stunt guy, you’re fucking it all up.” I wanted it to look like a bunch of guys who don’t know how to fight, fighting with each other. Sloppy and awkward and bloody. I feel that violence should mean something in a movie. And that goes back to the horror thing, and when I hear horror fans going, “This film doesn’t seem violent at all…”, like that’s their immediate response to whether the film is good or not. They have a body count, and if the film doesn’t make it, it sucks. And to me, that’s whacked. You can’t just chop people’s heads off for no reason. It gets cartoonish and means nothing. And I like when its made simple. Like you spend all this time getting into this character, and then this tiny thing happens and he’s gone. Just like in real life. People die in weird random ways all the time. But as far as the operatic thing goes, it’s all about trying to feel like there’s some grand purpose to death. That you’re life meant something so your death will mean something too. Not just, “Oh, yeah. He’s dead.” You know. “Take me out in a way that they remember!” (laughs). Going back to the finale of BONNIE AND CLYDE… Or BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID. When you build ultimately doomed heroes, or villains, you got to take them out in a way that will satisfy the audience. The end of DEVILS REJECTS, for me, is one of the greatest endings ever of a film. Despite their despicable behavior throughout, I found myself rooting for the Rejects. And when you cut back and forth between their showdown with the cops and them on the beach in happier times, I was surprised by how emotional it got for me. It’s challenging, because their love for each other, Spaulding’s love for his kids and their love for him, gives them a little bit of redemption. Which makes one wonder, who is the hero? Who is the villain of DEVIL’S REJECTS? You can say Bill Forsythe, the Sheriff, is the good guy, but he’s no better than the Rejects when it comes to sadism. Clearly the Sheriff is the hero and they’re the villains, because they have attacked innocent victims and the Sheriff is bringing them to justice by all means necessary. But that’s so simplistic. “Okay. Good guys. Bad guys. Whoop de do.” And I started thinking about stuff like when I saw Jeffrey Dahmer’s parents being interviewed. He’s their freaking son for God’s sake! This emotionless, horrible monster in a courtroom, and yet when he was stabbed to death in prison, you can’t help but think about his parents. At least, I can’t. No matter what, he was still somebody’s son. So as far as REJECTS go, it’s not really showing sympathy, because they are bad people and deserve what they get, it’s more that they are real people with all shades of emotion and quality. I wanted them to be real, ‘cuz if they’re not, who cares? Then they’re just a mindless, soulless faceless Jason Voorhees running around. Right. And I wasn’t interested in that. I mean, I know people like these guys. I’m sure everybody does. Maybe they’re in your family. They were in mine. Kids who were the most violent insane kids to each other, say brothers. Beat the shit out of each other, tortured, miserable. But if anyone else comes between them, forget about it. They would all protect each other against the other person, and then immediately go back to hating each other. It’s just this bizarre pack mentality. You know, Otis and Baby appear to hate each other, and then Spaulding and Otis have tension and at times can’t stand each other at all. But as soon as someone else comes in the picture, they’re completely united. Sometimes it boils down to casting why we feel what we do. Like in BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDNACE KID, they kill a lot of innocent people in cold blood. Yet we really don’t get to know the victims, which is why we don’t care as much. That and the fact that it’s also Robert Redford and Paul Newman doing the killing. Hard to stay mad at those guys! But what you do, which is challenging, is you let us in on the interior lives of the victims. Yeah. Banjo and Sullivan are not bad people by any means. They’re funny, fun to watch. They have their lives, their wives. That’s why it’s hard to watch their deaths. And also, I didn’t want to go with what you said, that “Get out of jail free card” of Redford/Newman. They’re so good looking they can do anything. They could be raping you’re mother and you’d be, ‘That’s okay! It’s Paul Newman!” (laughs). You once told me no more music from you. Only films. But know you’re getting ready to go on tour with OzzFest. Well, it was time for a break. This movie has been pretty intense, a way more intense experience than the last one. Only just last week have I felt like I’m done after over a year of non-stop insanity. So I thought it would be fun to go on tour, a great way to promote the movie, just get out amongst everybody. Unwind. ‘Cuz I’m not in the head space to start another project, but maybe come September when I get home, I’ll start the next film project. So will there be another Rob Zombie record?
Only Rob Zombie filmmaker from now on? Yeah. I mean, because there are only so many years in your life and each movie takes up so many of them. You know how it is, Tim. Yep. I called my film 2001 MANIACS because I wrote it in 2000 and naively thought it would be out in theaters in 2001. Five years later… 2005 MANIACS (laughs)! I know you said you don’t want to do just horror films. What is some secret story you’d like to tell? Well, I’m not really sure, but I really like small movies where it’s just people. My favorite movies that I always go see every year are movies like AMERICAN SPLENDOR, GHOST WORLD, or THE STATION AGENT. Those are the films I get most excited about. Not big budget bloated Hollywood films. Movies like CRASH. Those are the movies I’ll go see first before I catch up on all the other stuff. You ever see MEAN CREEK? No, but I heard about it. That’s the one where the kids go on a boat trip and accidentally kill one of their friends. You should see that. When I saw it I thought, if Rob Zombie ever made STAND BY ME, it would be MEAN CREEK. The next movie I’m putting together is definitely in that vein. So are we done with Spaulding and Otis and Baby? Yeah, I mean… I’m done. I don’t know if Lion’s Gate is firing up another one without me (laughs)! That’s the other thing about sequel-mania. You can’t ever make a definitive statement in a movie any more because everything has to be able to continue on to the next one and the next one. That’s when I feel movies really start feeling like a hollow experience. Like there’s certain movies we just mentioned. CRASH, for instance. I don’t think there’s anyone out there going, “Oh, we’re gearing up for CRASH 2”. But other ones that you just know is a set-up for a sequel. You feel empty. You never feel the main character is really in any danger ‘cuz you know he or she is coming back in a sequel. You’re absolutely right. The definitive experience. The films we grew up were definitive experiences. You never thought there would be BONNIE & CLYDE 2. Guess what, kids! They survived and were taken to a hospital and patched up for more mayhem. Or that Butch & Sundance really made it… Right. They dodged all the bullets! I mean, maybe if you have an epic that could be told in chapters, like GODFATHER, but even that one was pushed too far with GODFATHER THREE. But c’mon. TAXI DRIVER PART 2? That’s what I like so much about DEVIL’S REJECTS. It is definitive. And when I left the screening, I felt, wow, that was a very satisfying, sold and complete story. Cool. Thanks. And you know, I hate the idea of a franchise. Movies used to be this singular thing. Like CLOSE ENCOUNTERS from start to finish. There’s the Nowadays, it is more about the franchise than that story itself. How much money a movie makes, the whole preoccupation with the weekend box office. We never cared about that! Today, people judge the merit of a movie based on how much money it makes. What position it is in the Top Ten charts. Like if it’s not Number One than it must not be any good. And usually, it’s the exact opposite. Whatever comes in Number One is usually an over bloated piece of crap, and the great movie is buried somewhere in there. There’s also a whole preoccupation with the “Behind-the-Scenes”, all these DVD extras… It’s kind of a tricky thing, because those are the stakes now. If you put out a DVD and it doesn’t have 18 hours of extras, people go, “What a fucking rip-off!” Having said that, we made a two and a half documentary on the making of DEVIL’S REJECTS. It’s nuts, and it literally follows day-by-day the whole making of the movie. It’s like PROJECT GREENLIGHT except even more wild. And it gives everything away in a sense, but in another sense which I like, it really shows how insane it is to make a movie. We started out from the first day and filmed everything. And its fun to see somebody reading their lines for the first time and then cut to the final scene in the movie. What’s it called? 30 DAYS IN HELL. How appropriate. What’s it like reliving it all? It’s really fun. But I’ll be watching it and I’ll go, “Oh, my God. What day is that?” And it’ll come up on the screen, “Day Three”. And I’m like, “Day Three?! Jesus Christ! It feels like Day Twenty!” I mean, some days we had to get through ten pages, which was just hard. You know, the whole opening shoot-out was shot in a day.
That was psychotic shooting that. How many cameras did you have? Four. And usually, you know, you shoot, actors go back to their trailers, relax. I mean, here, no one could leave the set. We were shooting constantly, cause we had to. But that comes through. There is an organic energy to the film. A real vitality. I truly believe that the vibe of the set comes through in the scene. If the set is lethargic, if its pondering, the movie comes out that way. You had everybody on their toes, and that’s exactly how that opening scene plays. And no one could ever fall out of character in the scene. It wasn’t like, “We’ll pick it up tomorrow.” No. We’re done. Moving on. And that comes through. Nothing against anybody, but in a lot of big budget films with an endless shooting schedule, you can see that they’re coasting through. When someone like William Forsythe comes in with that attitude, “I’m coming here to steal the whole movie from you”, it makes everyone else go, “Oh, shit! This is not the set I thought I was stepping on.” But a fast paced schedule puts your on your ‘A’ game all day long. Otherwise, you’re gonna get eaten alive. You’ve been doing a lot of interviews, and you were telling me a lot of interviewers just expect you to be the “dumb heavy metal guy”. Yeah, its funny because…. Having a second movie helps a lot. The first movie was a nightmare. And in some way, rightfully so, because I guess they just consider that if you do music, especially heavy metal, you’re borderline retarded. So you’ve gotta fight back at that whole preconceived notion that you’re just an idiot, the idea that it was just some whacky thing you did. A fluke… Exactly. I mean, how can it be a fluke? You know how much fucking work it is to make a movie. You know there’s no way to fake your way through it, fuck around and a movie just happens. They just don’t know what it entails. And they probably think that because you’re good at one thing as an artist, you can’t possibly be good at something else. And they don’t want you to be good at something else. You know, HOUSE OF A 1000 CORPSES got a lot of shit from people, and I always think, if it was just some guy making his first movie, would he have gotten as much shit as I did? But because it was me, it was extra shit, like “Who does Rob Zombie Nobody gave James Wan grief for being a first timer on SAW. And nobody cared. They took the movie at face value. But whatever. It doesn’t really matter, its just interesting that so many of the attacks on CORPSES, and even now… I mean, I really don’t care whether critics like my movies or don’t like them, its always gonna be that way, but it always seems more personal. Its not even about the movie all the time, just the fact that “Rob Zombie” made a movie seems to annoy people. Then again, maybe on the other hand, it makes people like it who maybe wouldn’t like it. The fans will be predisposed to like it, but perhaps the critics will be predisposed not to. You’re fucked, dude! (laughs) Yep! (laughs) And I think that if people don’t like my music to begin with, they’ll put that on the movie as well. Which sucks, because… I mean, I don’t give a shit if you fucking hate my records, just don’t fucking put that on the movie. So perhaps being “ROB ZOMBIE” the rock icon has hurt you in terms of being taken seriously as a filmmaker? It’s helped and it’s hurt. I think it’s hurt on a credibility level. Most people who write about movies really don’t know how they’re made. They never stood on a set for 18 hours day after day after day. They’ve never sat in preproduction meeting. No. They sit on their fat asses in front of a computer screen talking the game rather than playing it. Exactly. They truly don’t know how movies are made. They think they do, however, and they have the preconceived idea that because you’re already a celebrity, HOUSE OF 1000 CORPSES just happened. How did it just happen? I didn’t just pull it out of my ass. It had to be made like any other movie. (laughs) But I think that now with DEVIL’S REJECTS, I’ve been doing a lot of press and that attitude seems to be gone. But there’s also that thing, and I understand it, where like, everybody goes, “Oh, I wanna direct.” Like it’s so easy and anybody can do it. Somehow you just walk on set, yell something and that’s it. You go eat sushi. But isn’t that what you do? That’s what I did on 2001 MANIACS! (laughs). Of course.  Do you think maybe the actual name, “Rob Zombie”, leads people into thinking that anything directed by a guy with a name like that has gotta be schlock? Oh, probably, yeah. I relate it to this. Right now I’m Ron Howard and everyone keeps thinking I’m Opie. (laughs) “You’re just Opie making a movie! Can’t take you seriously, Opie!” And then maybe you get to the stage where you’re Richie Cunningham and then they take you seriously. And eventually they think of you as a director and they give you an Oscar. By the end of DEVIL’S REJECTS, maybe I’ll be Richie Cunnignham. |
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Western. It’s not like you’re watching HIGH NOON, even though there’s a Westerny feel to how things play out. 
I always liked the Bava way of, “If the trees are green, let’s light them green!” You know, make everything pop. 
HOUSE OF 1000 CORPSES had you never had that career behind you? 
There’s a record that I actually started recording before REJECTS, so I’ll probably finish it just because its there to finish. But after that? I don’t know… 
experience. But now they have to beat it to death. Rocky didn’t need to go on. I mean, as a kid, I was super excited to see ROCKY II, ‘cuz the idea of a sequel was still kind of fresh… And ROCKY’s a brilliant movie. Every time I see it I love it more. And then the other ones, by the end, he’s not Rocky! What is he? He’s like some steroid, tanned, hairless glamour boy! What happened to the palooka? 
You’re kidding me? 
think he is making a movie! That pretentious fucking metal head dick!” What am I being pretentious about? I’m just making a movie! (laughs)