Where They Went Wrong: Franchises, Trilogies, whatever

[ASoron0424]

I was interested in opening a discussion about where you guys think certain horror franchises started going downhill. The reason I was interested in this was because I saw Halloween 4 and 5 in one sitting on like Spike a few years ago, and I hated them both; but then I went to that Halloween 4 and 5 double feature that was in theaters on Oct. 30th, and maybe this was just the experience of getting to see them on the big screen again (preceded by interviews w/ cast, directors, writers, and the men behind the mask), but I got this much stronger appreciation for them, so now I'm interested in going back to the Halloween series, give them a kind of discerning look, and find where I think it really started to go downhill.

Hellraiser, I think Hellraiser III was its death certificate - completely destroyed the calm, cool, collect, omniscient badass persona that made Pinhead such a great character in the first place.

Nightmare on Elm Street, I think the second one was the last good one (aside from Wes Craven's New Nightmare and FvJ).

I'm not gonna go on, just wanted to give you an idea of what I mean. Where do you think particular franchises went wrong, and why?

[Gamefreakgill]

Friday The 13th totally went downhill after number 4

[BooBerry]

NOES went wrong after number 5.
Halloween went wrong after 5 as well when they added in the whole supernatural element. H20 was pretty good, but Resurrection sucked.

And um, the Leprechaun series was no good after the first one. ;o)

[ASoron0424]

I thought Jason Takes Manhattan wasn't so bad.

But yeah, I agree about the Halloween thing; the supernatural element threw everything off, and it's a MAJOR turn off for the fifth one - but there's something about the atmosphere of the fifth one that makes it one of my favorites. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it seems darker than a lot of the others. I thought six was a travesty, "a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of sham." A lot of the time when John Carpenter talks about Halloween and what he thinks about Michael Myers, he refers to him as a faceless being, just this kind of ambiguous embodiment of evil, and I think that really motivated the fear of most of the movies, that we didn't know shit about him. We found out a little bit in the second one, but after finding out he was Laurie's brother, all we really knew about him was his motive. I think once they started to give him backstory, the movies started to go down hill. It started in pt. 4 and went downhill from there. 4 and 5 are still towards the top of that downhill curve, but they're on it nonetheless.
Halloween: Resurrection doesn't even deserve reference.

[Wrathborne]

Well a lot of it is that studios dont give a shit about the product as long as there's more of it.

Being that so many people blindly watch these films just because they're there doesnt help either.

If you regularly watch crap like...black christmas, the ring 2, the resident evil trilogy and the Hostel and Saw films just because they're out and you dont have anything else planned and THEN complain about the lack of quality of horror sequels and films in general...thats pretty hypocritial dont you think?

Watch this crap fro free on tv is different but paying for it and them griping just doesnt click for me.

As this is a semi on going debate I know I'v eopene dup a can of worms into the topic. But its a factor as to why we have so many lackluster trilogies, sequels and series.

I relish the day when horror fans all get together and just flat out say 'no' to a film they dont want.

[BooBerry]

I relish the day when horror fans all get together and just flat out say 'no' to a film they dont want.

Which was....?

[JerkyPuck]

I think the whole thing that makes a series great is a storyline that continues itself without ignoring the previous entries. The F-13th series had a continuation in 1-4, then died. I think films like Saw are realizing that the story has to continue from the 1st film and that is refreshing....HOWEVER, if it runs out of steam, they have to realize that artistically, not according to how many millions it brings in.

[ASoron0424]

I think the whole thing that makes a series great is a storyline that continues itself without ignoring the previous entries. The F-13th series had a continuation in 1-4, then died. I think films like Saw are realizing that the story has to continue from the 1st film and that is refreshing....HOWEVER, if it runs out of steam, they have to realize that artistically, not according to how many millions it brings in.

Well, Darren Bousman, the director of Saw 4 (and I think 2 and 3 as well) said that he and the other writers know exactly where the saw franchise is going and that part six is going to be a difinitive end to the story.

But that's a good point, and I think you're right about going back and referencing past events, making the whole series into a continuous story, that always does help a lot. However, I also like when new stories are introduced with a bit of reference to past ones. Like Nightmare on Elm Street 2's reference to Nancy's journal from part one; or Halloween 4 and 5 referencing Laurie Strode from the first two - sort of semi-continuing the story.

[JerkyPuck]

yeah, as long as there is a mention. Although I love the F-13 series, it was like all these people were getting butchered and nobody knew who the hell Jason Vorhees was....you would think people would know by then LOL.

[Wrathborne]

Which was....?

I said I relish the day WHEN, meaning it hasnt occured yet...but someday it will. and its gonna be really fucking funny.


Might need to make alolcats shirt for this occasion.

"I'm at your home not watchin ur movie!'

[steelba]

The only horror series that didn't go downhill for me was Phantasm.
Well part 4 was the weakest, mainly due to the lack of a follow up.

[cmurdur]

I just can't convince myself to watch Phantasm 4. the series is okay at best. The Evil Dead trlio is probably the strongest thanks to Land of the Dead.

[ASoron0424]

Land of the Dead certainly was an incredible let down, and I'm not really looking forward to Romero's next movie. From what I heard, it's got a good premise, but he's like a child in that he just wants to work in guns and massive shoot outs into everything. Some of the greatest gorefests in horror movie history don't even involve a single gun. Romero's really really into gore, but tries to put a weapon into every character's hand - and I can see how that can be stimulating and add more to the excitement, but only if it's used in moderation, which he really doesn't seem to do. I think the Dead series' flame started to dwindle away with Day of the Dead.

[FreddyKruger316]

Halloween went wrong with Halloween H20 when they decided to totally ignore the previous three films in the series. F13th went wrong when they added that whole body-hoping crap in Jason Goes to Hell. NOES went wrong with... nah the NOES series never went wrong. :D

[ASoron0424]

Halloween went wrong with H20 when they decided to ignore the previous three films in the series. F13th went wrong when they added that whole body-hoping crap in Jason Goes to Hell. NOES went wrong with... nah the NOES series never went wrong. :D

I don't remember which one it was, but one of the NOESs ended in an abandoned hospital or something, it had to do with a baby - it may have been the fifth one. That one was really bad.

No offense here, I think there's a risk of you taking it personally lol, but don't you think Freddy got kind of annoying about halfway into the series? His puns kinda forced? I actually think some people have a natural skill or inclination towards profanity, some people can just pull it off spectacularly, and then there are some that suck pendulous balls when it comes to cursing, and every time Robert Englund says "bitch" it seems so forced and wrong and I just can't help but cringe.

[Misfit]

Land of the Dead certainly was an incredible let down, and I'm not really looking forward to Romero's next movie. From what I heard, it's got a good premise, but he's like a child in that he just wants to work in guns and massive shoot outs into everything. Some of the greatest gorefests in horror movie history don't even involve a single gun. Romero's really really into gore, but tries to put a weapon into every character's hand - and I can see how that can be stimulating and add more to the excitement, but only if it's used in moderation, which he really doesn't seem to do. I think the Dead series' flame started to dwindle away with Day of the Dead.

you cant be serious about the fact he wants guns and massive shootouts in his films.

[BooBerry]

I just can't convince myself to watch Phantasm 4. the series is okay at best. The Evil Dead trlio is probably the strongest thanks to Land of the Dead.

Evil Dead & Land of the Dead...? Was I missing something?

[JerkyPuck]

I was thinking the same thing Boo. argh. It's the Dead Trilogy mah friend.

[réÐþÁ†µ]

Childs play went wrong after number 3. Granted Chucky wasnt remotely scary after the original but once you get to Bride of Chucky, the joke stops.

Friday the 13th went wrong after Part 8. While Part 8 itself could've been much more with a better budget and decent script, it was bottom of the barrel in terms of Friday the 13th but it still maintained the consistentcy of zombie Jason.

Friday the 13th can be divided into seperate stories IMO. The original is obviously the story of Mrs. Voorhees. Parts 2 through 3 are the groundwork for the legend of Jason. Parts 4 through 6 were the Tommy Jarvis trilogy with the idea that Jason actually was given a consistent Nemesis and he was male unlike the Halloween and Nightmare series with predominantly female leads.

Then theres zombie Jason of entries 7 and 8. Beyond that, its a mess.

[Joker]

Evil Dead & Land of the Dead...? Was I missing something?

My guess is that he's saying he would have gone with Romero's Dead series if it wasnt for Land of the Dead.
But,since Land of the Dead was a bad addition to the franchise he is going with the Evil Dead series.
Thats just a guess,I could be wrong.

[Driden]

Freddy - Went downhill at Part 2.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PR7WW6200mg

what a piece of shit. After that he started trying to get funny and his one liners were about as bad as his sweater

Jason - Friday the 13th was never that good. So it was more about the kills than the story so imo it just got tired but Jason X really did it in.

Hellraiser - Part 3 was the beginning of the end

Halloween - Part 3. It completely used another story and used the Halloween name to sell it. Then Part 4, 5, and 6 come out which were good BUT gave us plotholes, characters went missing, explanations didn't make sense.. just bad!

Land of the dead - Holy fuck what was this shit? Its like he went overboard on the fanboyism of Bub and gave us sensitive misunderstood undead. oh how fucking sweet

[deathslasher666]

Friday the Thirteenth series
Leprechaun series
Urban Legend series

[TacK]

Leprechaun went down after 2 I think.
Freddy went down after Freddys Dead but redeemed himself with New Nightmare
Jason went down after Takes Manhattan(Seriously, when did Crystal Lake EVER have a river connecting it to New York fucking City?)
I like most of the Halloween movies but could have did without H20 and Resurrection.

[Late For Reality]

When they all went to space.

[Treefroggiefreak]

Nightmare On Elm Street 1 - 3 were great. After that it was kind of WTF.

Friday The 13th 1 - 4 were great. After that it went into just a kill count series.

Halloween 1 and 2 were great. 3 shouldn't be consisdered part of the series. 4 was decent, but five was a complete mess. I never even bothered to watch 6 in all honesty. I really enjoyed H20 and the first 15 minutes of Resurrection were good, but after that 15 minutes I wanted to kill myself.

The Leprachaun Series, I actually really enjoyed 1 - 3, but 4 - 6 blew.

[ASoron0424]

you cant be serious about the fact he wants guns and massive shootouts in his films.

You don't think Land of the Dead turned into more of a stupid action movie than horror? Steven Segal may as well have played the protagonist.

[dead breed]

The Leprechaun series after the second movie.

[ASoron0424]

What about the Scanners movies? I've only seen the first one, apparently there're like three.

From Dusk Till Dawn should never have had a sequel.

[cmurdur]

My guess is that he's saying he would have gone with Romero's Dead series if it wasnt for Land of the Dead.
But,since Land of the Dead was a bad addition to the franchise he is going with the Evil Dead series.
Thats just a guess,I could be wrong.

no, you're right.

[Misfit]

You don't think Land of the Dead turned into more of a stupid action movie than horror? Steven Segal may as well have played the protagonist.

you said romero likes it, if you seen his films that statement would make no sense

[FreddyFreakChica17]

Leprechaun: went down after number three ( I enjoyed watching him tear up Vegas, what can I say??)

Halloween: H2O and Ressurection did this series in - we need to make at least one more sequel, just so Myers wasn't killed for good by Busta Fuckin' Rhymes...:shakehead

Friday the 13th: Five ruined it - but I'll admit seven was quite enjoyable.

Nightmare on Elm Street: 1-3 were the best, 4 & 5 are watchable; 6 just amuses me, and New Nightmare rocks my socks.

[ASoron0424]

you said romero likes it, if you seen his films that statement would make no sense

Are you suggesting that there's more to his movies than just action? I agree, I'm more so referring to the Dead series, not so much his other movies; there's not really that kind of fanaticism about shootouts in The Crazies or either of the Creepshows. He's got a political subtext to his movies, particularly in the Dead series, and you can see the parallels in Land of the Dead to contemp. politics, but it seems as though that's all he had to deliver with the movie, like he really wasn't into the characters or story so much as he once was, like he was motivated to make the movie entirely out of a hatred for the Bush administration - and since he had nothing else to offer w/ it besides some bitter satire, he decided to just go all out with ridiculous action scenes for shits and giggles.

[thrEE6MAfia]

all the f13 are good expect for the one when the killer isnt even jason just a guy dressed up as him...

i enjoy the lepurchaun movies, espically the ind a hood ones lol

halloween 3 :die:

[skybrick]

If Halloween 3 wasn't called Halloween 3 it would have a lot more respect.

[pastor_ice43]

The ultimate demise of any horror franchise is when they throw continuity out the window. Friday the 13th was great till part 8. Part 8 held the continuity, but it was a horrible movie. Then when they came out with JGTH, it just destroyed any connections. Thats when it went downhill. ANOES falls to the same thing....all through part 5 it was fine, but then Freddy's Dead came out and blew it all to shit. Halloween has really been the only one to keep the continuity, even though there are 2 different story lines....1, 2, 4, 5, and 6...and 1, 2, 7, and 8. I personally don't care for 4 or 5, and though I don't hate 8 as much as most...it needs to be scrapped. The Halloween franchise as it stands should be 1, 2, and 7. Resurrection needs to be scrapped, and Laurie dying needs to be taken out of the story. If they want to do another, then do a good one....otherwise treat it as a trilogy and make 1, 2, and H20 it.

[pastor_ice43]

Are you suggesting that there's more to his movies than just action? I agree, I'm more so referring to the Dead series, not so much his other movies; there's not really that kind of fanaticism about shootouts in The Crazies or either of the Creepshows. He's got a political subtext to his movies, particularly in the Dead series, and you can see the parallels in Land of the Dead to contemp. politics, but it seems as though that's all he had to deliver with the movie, like he really wasn't into the characters or story so much as he once was, like he was motivated to make the movie entirely out of a hatred for the Bush administration - and since he had nothing else to offer w/ it besides some bitter satire, he decided to just go all out with ridiculous action scenes for shits and giggles.

Yes but Romero's subtext are often the things I don't care for. His movies are great...and Land is great as well...but just give me a zombie movie. It wouldn't be so bad if he used different movies to make his points, but with zombies? In Land of the Dead, the subtext was...these zombies have a right to be here, and we shouldn't be going around shooting them to hell. F that. If some grotesque monster, and thats what they are, monsters, is trying to eat me, he's getting a bullet in the head. Romero should have made his "anti bush" statement in a different movie.

[koolmike]

Biggest franchise flop = Halloween

[pastor_ice43]

Well a lot of it is that studios dont give a shit about the product as long as there's more of it.

Being that so many people blindly watch these films just because they're there doesnt help either.

If you regularly watch crap like...black christmas, the ring 2, the resident evil trilogy and the Hostel and Saw films just because they're out and you dont have anything else planned and THEN complain about the lack of quality of horror sequels and films in general...thats pretty hypocritial dont you think?

Watch this crap fro free on tv is different but paying for it and them griping just doesnt click for me.

As this is a semi on going debate I know I'v eopene dup a can of worms into the topic. But its a factor as to why we have so many lackluster trilogies, sequels and series.

I relish the day when horror fans all get together and just flat out say 'no' to a film they dont want.

It'll never happen because of taste. We agree that both the black x-mas remake and the ring 1 and 2 are crap. But I think the RE: Trilogy (not so much the last one) and the hostle, and saw movies are gold. Alot of people loved the Descent...I thought it was crap. There's always going to be different tastes. I do however agree that if you're complaining about a certain movie....paying to go see it is pretty dumb.

[brennan]

NOES is a spotty franchise at best. 1 and 3 were pretty great, though after reading some of the articles about the homosexual subtexts in part two, I have to say that I have a newfound enjoyment of it. 4-6 are pretty much shit and new nightmare was good, but pretty much jumped the shark as far as Freddy's concerned. he's done.

Child's play was fun for the first two flicks, but after that just got retarded...well, moreso, i suppose.

hellraiser lost me after part 2.

friday the 13th shouldn't have continued beyond part five or so. it kinda became a cash cow after that.

personally, I'm not that big on franchises. I think that there are far too many original ideas out there to waste celluloid on watching jason voorhees go into the woods and hack some interchangeable group of teenagers.

[Chief Falling Rock]

Halloween should have never continued after part 2

[skybrick]

Biggest franchise flop = Halloween

is that why it sells and sells?

[Knight]

Well Britney Spears and the Backstreet Boys sold millions of records. Doesn't make them any good. I think 'Halloween' and similar franchises are testament to the fact that horror fans and general movie goers by and large are more than content with recycled, mediocre garbage.

[skybrick]

OH so you two arent actually saying they are a flop you two just dont like them. Well I like Halloween (like the mass majority on the board), and I like the Backstreet Boys.

[Misfit]

and I like the Backstreet Boys.

:shakehead

[skybrick]

I joke

[Misfit]

I joke

:naughty:

[steelba]

) and I like the Backstreet Boys.
Do you also like young boys?

[skybrick]

:eyes:

[steelba]

:lol:

[cmurdur]

steelba, you didn't see him on NBC a few weeks ago?
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p107/jwilks33/predator_hansen_nbc.jpg
he gave a UHM shoutout.

[steelba]

I thought that was Koolmike.

[Misfit]

surprised he didnt wear the shorts

[holdmycock]

I don't think enough people know about the reasoning behind Halloween 3, so it just gets panned as a bad movie in the franchise due to not following plotlines of the first two movies.

John Carpentar wanted to experiment with the series, and each film after the first two were to be different stories about something horrible occurring on Halloween night.. but no one cared for the third one and now, it's just got a bad rap all around.

As far as bad series go, I think Candyman should have stopped at Candyman.

[Joker]

I don't think enough people know about the reasoning behind Halloween 3, so it just gets panned as a bad movie in the franchise due to not following plotlines of the first two movies.

John Carpentar wanted to experiment with the series, and each film after the first two were to be different stories about something horrible occurring on Halloween night.. but no one cared for the third one and now, it's just got a bad rap all around.


The way I understand it is the first one was a hit so the movies studios pushed for the 2nd film.After that Carpenter said he was going back to his original idea of having a differnent movie every Halloween.
It's a shame it never happened this way.



Nice user name by the way:D.
I'm sure others will think so too.

[réÐþÁ†µ]

I think Friday the 13th and Halloween both had chances to go in completely different directions with their series.

Part 3 with Halloween and Part 5 with Friday. Instead they brought back Myers in what I feel is a weak Halloween 4 however I thought Friday 6 was a breath of fresh air albeit a different Friday the 13th in many ways from the previous 5.

[holdmycock]

The way I understand it is the first one was a hit so the movies studios pushed for the 2nd film.After that Carpenter said he was going back to his original idea of having a differnent movie every Halloween.
It's a shame it never happened this way.



Nice user name by the way:D.
I'm sure others will think so too.

That's what brought on Halloween 4. Studio says, what the hell were you thinking? And they try to painfully get it back on track. Resurrection has to be the worst, though.. when you bring in random rappers into horror - it's over. Might as well head to outerspace. Looking at it that way.. it's kind of nice that Rob Zombie tried to restart the thing. I don't care for either, though. I just refuse to be harsh on Halloween 3 - cause the ending is sweet.


I picked this user name so long ago.. I joined in March... I don't know what happened.

[koolmike]

surprised he didnt wear the shorts


Homo.


The Halloween franchise is a flop IMO because they abused the fuck out of the original idea. Only so far you can take a masked man with a knife.

[koolmike]

Halloween should have never continued after part 2

Agreed.

III was great without MM.

[Treefroggiefreak]

I think with Halloween, if Carpenter wanted his original idea, he shouldn't have left the ending open with Michael disappearing.

However, I really can't see a series of completely unrelated films doing well in the long run. The series COULD have been brought back with the H20 line because I REALLY liked H20, but I think after the first 15 minutes of Resurrection they killed it again. After the first 15 minutes of Resurrection, Michael should have found John and went after his ass. That would've been a movie I would have enjoyed.

[réÐþÁ†µ]

Only one problem.

Josh Hartnett was a nobody in 1998.

5-6 years later, no way barring overpaying for him would he come back to the series.

[holdmycock]

Homo.


The Halloween franchise is a flop IMO because they abused the fuck out of the original idea. Only so far you can take a masked man with a knife.

http://i23.tinypic.com/2427t6u.jpg

[Oravear]

surprised he didnt wear the shorts

:spit:

[Treefroggiefreak]

Only one problem.

Josh Hartnett was a nobody in 1998.

5-6 years later, no way barring overpaying for him would he come back to the series.

Bah. He's not that big of an actor now even. How much was he payed for 30 Days Of Night?

[ASoron0424]

I don't know how much he was payed for 30 Days of Night, but I do know in the next two Sin City sequels he's gonna have a much meatier role.

[koolmike]

http://i23.tinypic.com/2427t6u.jpg
:lol:

[ASoron0424]

Koolmike, a masked man with a knife has been the centerpiece of countless horror movies between the eighties and today, how can you question how far it can be taken? It'll still be going on when we're telling our grandkids they don't make them like they used to. They hit a goldmine with the concept of the masked killer, the found one thing that would scare absolutely everyone encountered by it - especially when they started making the killers fucking invincible.

[koolmike]

Koolmike, a masked man with a knife has been the centerpiece of countless horror movies between the eighties and today, how can you question how far it can be taken?

The question of this thread is, "What went wrong?" basically.

You just said it...countless of masked men with knives killing teenagers. It's been done to death...no originality. I never said the masked man with the knife wouldn't sell. It's just friggin' overdone and boring. That's what I meant by how far can it be taken?

[ASoron0424]

The question of this thread is, "What went wrong?" basically.

You just said it...countless of masked men with knives killing teenagers. It's been done to death...no originality. I never said the masked man with the knife wouldn't sell. It's just friggin' overdone and boring. That's what I meant by how far can it be taken?

Well, okay, yeah, I misinterpreted what you said, sorry - but now that it's been clarified I think I can still counter that. It's really just a matter of what the writer and director do with the material, the masked knifeman can always be made scary again if managed well.

[réÐþÁ†µ]

Well for all intent and purposes.

Micheal is the only masked killer that repetitively uses a kitchen knife and kills teenagers. Freddy used dreams and his claw to dispatch his victims.

Jason was the king of kings. Sure they gave him a staple weapon in the machete but by far he was the master of adding variety to his rep with so many different and unique ways of dispatching people. Crushing them with his hands, chewing up Dr. Crews with a weedwhacker, smashing a bitch up against a tree in a sleeping bag, etc.

Jason was the end all, be all in that regard. Throughout the Friday the 13th series. Savini and others always found ways to make Jason creative. Sure Micheal was first, but Jason was far more innovative IMO and Freddy wasnt nearly as boring killwise either IMO.

[ASoron0424]

That's a really good point, ReDPATH, but Michael wasn't as mundane in his kills as you make him out to be. He uses a garden hoe in Halloween 4, he's crushed the skulls of many men, he broke the neck of the dog in the first one, he impaled a cop w/ a shotgun in the fourth - he's got a decent variety going, to say the least.

[koolmike]

The whole masked man with any weapon has been shamelessly overdone.

Movies like Maniac and American Psycho provoked thought on top of fear which is always a welcomed relief.

[ASoron0424]

The whole masked man with any weapon has been shamelessly overdone.

Movies like Maniac and American Psycho provoked thought on top of fear which is always a welcomed relief.

hahaha, I like hearing that, nobody mentions American Psycho.