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View Full Version : Are Homeowners caught in the housing collapse "victims?"


Grendel
01-11-2008, 07:45 PM
Reckless Mortgage Borrowers Do Not Deserve to Be Rescued
Jan 04, 2008

If you have followed the news at all over the last few months, then you know that the public has been spoon fed a spate of tearjerker news stories that are meant to paint struggling mortgage borrowers as victims. These stories talk about the importance of staving off foreclosures and helping people who need it, but they very rarely touch on the truth of the matter: most mortgage borrowers were reckless and do not deserved to be rescued.

By Pat Summers

The term predatory lending gets thrown around a lot. President Bush and others who support some form of mortgage rescue love to use it when they make speeches because it implies that mortgage borrowers are victims.

But what is a 'victim' exactly? And how does a mortgage borrower become a victim? Is it because of the rate they pay, the loan they get, the paperwork they sign?

No.

Just because some borrowers got a subprime loan when they could have gotten a prime loan or a high interest rate when they could have gotten a low interest rate, it doesn't mean they have been victimized. Perhaps they are just bad consumers who didn't get rate quotes from several different lenders like they should have.

And if borrowers get a risky adjustable rate mortgage versus a trusty fixed rate mortgage on the lender's urging or to qualify for homes they otherwise couldn't afford, it doesn't mean the borrowers have been duped. It means the borrowers were either living in the moment or stupid enough to think it unnecessary to research various loan products.

As for paperwork? Well, what kind of moron doesn't read a binding contract before they sign it? Mortgages are for grownups. Just because a borrower isn't adult enough to realize that reading is part of a banking transaction it doesn't mean that borrower is a victim.

Finally, there are a huge number of borrowers who LIED on their mortgage applications and schemed with brokers and other industry participants. These borrowers are straight out accomplices to mortgage fraud and do not deserve the victim label.

Ever Heard of a Calculator?

As bad as the other stories are, the worst mortgage borrower sob stories are those that involve people who have no knowledge of a calculator and what it does. These news bits encourage readers to feel sympathy for borrowers who can't afford ridiculously large mortgage payments.

It's absolutely ludicrous. Why should regular debt-fearing folks have a pity party for borrowers who were deluded enough to think it was a good idea to purchase a McMansion on a trailer house income? Because the lender said it was doable?

Puh-leeze.

Lenders are in the business to sell loans. It is the borrower's responsibility to crunch the numbers. In the end it is the borrower who must determine whether or not the purchase is 'doable.'

This is true with all purchases. Think about it. If a consumer goes into Best Buy and looks at a TV, it is the consumer who must eventually decide whether or not the flat screen TV the salesman is pushing is actually affordable. This isn't a decision that the salesman can make. It is no different with mortgages.

Rescue? I Don't Think So

The mere idea that mortgage borrowers deserve to be rescued is downright laughable. While there are people who are losing their home due to legitimate problems like job loss, health issues, etc., the majority of borrowers are looking into an abyss that they themselves created.

Rescuing them does nothing but reward their behavior. And considering the fact that the majority of troubled borrowers are victims of their own greed and stupidity, a reward hardly seems in order.

It's time for the U.S. Government, the media, and the American public to think about the definition of victim and apply it accordingly. If we can do that, we may be able to rescue people who actually need help versus mortgage borrowers who need little more than a slap to the head and a wake-up call.Personally, I have no sympathy for any of the lenders or 99% of the borrowers.

SonOfSavini
01-11-2008, 07:54 PM
I just bought a house back in 2006 I agree with you that some borrowers deserve no sympathy whatsoever. There was the fine print that they could have gone over, hired someone to look it over, or shopped around more, ect, ect...

Now come the other side of the story.
When I started looking to buy a house with my wife our options were severely limited. We had excellent credit, but we were young, no other major loans except car loans...nothing to "back us up" and no one would give us a flat fixed 30 year rate that was decent. All of the lenders we called wanted to give us a "floating" rate and you wouldn't believe the interest rates. Luckily I had the VA to fall back on and I was able to secure a 30 year fixed rate for 7%...which is pretty decent. But for others like me who don't have the VA as an option are severely limited in there choices and most of the time out of desperation, they choose what they think is the best option because it may be the only one available. Those are the people I have sympathy for.

RIP
01-11-2008, 09:27 PM
I knew it was bad when we went to get approved a couple years ago and they offered us a loan that we couldn't possibly make the payments on. As much as we wanted to buy, we just couldn't take the chance. (especially in Los Angeles) Thankfully, we waited...and will continue to wait until this ship rights itself. Who knows? Maybe we'll take advantage of someone else's misfortune. (Or some dumbass who had no business getting a loan in the first place)

The lenders can go fuck themselves. The "victims" are hardly that. You know what you earn. You know what you can afford. KNOWINGLY overextending yourself is never a smart thing. No one got duped here.

Luris Blear
01-12-2008, 12:13 AM
Minus the spite, I tend to agree. The whole situation smells of people hoping to get something big for minimum effort.

People who actually do get away with this are rare.

When we moved, the price of moving into a new home was $100 more than where we were living plus the storage unit we were renting. I was able to step up to where my income went up $300 a month and the mortgage was fixed rate. (Strangely, we did research other options and the first offer was the best.)

This wasn't luck. Just planning.

satanocat
01-12-2008, 11:40 AM
when we started looking at houses to buy we were approved for way more than we thought we could afford. we turned it down and decided to try for something that would only include one of our incomes instead of both. (we also live in a very small town). so instead of getting some $100,000 ranch house with all the bells and whistles, we settled for a cozy 3 bedroom house for half that. we also had a nice down payment for it. yeah my house is 200 years old and needs some work, but since it is on such a big lot, we were able to add a nice 2 car garage onto it.
i feel that most people do not put as much thought into buying houses as they should. we looked at average cost of taxes each year, the neighbor hood (you dont want to move into an area where they are going to start building new houses and such, taxes go up), the cost of homeowners insurance, and also made sure that we got the insurance from the bank that if we lost income, the house payment would be covered until we got that income back ( i cant think of the name of it right now, but trust me its worth the little extra you pay each month on it). that insurance saved our asses a couple of years ago my my old man almost took off his arm with a metal grinder. he was out of work for 3 months and at the time there was no way we could have survived without it.
people need to think about things like that before they get into something big like buying a house. i know so many people that have gone under because they had great jobs and were making money like there was no tomorrow. they bought houses that they should not have been able to afford, got new cars, and then lost everything because their jobs were cut, or got fired because of attendance policies and such.
its sad that people want so badly to impress everyone else that they are almost guaranteed to lose it all in the process.
thats my 3 cents

Grendel
01-12-2008, 05:08 PM
Minus the spite, I tend to agree. The whole situation smells of people hoping to get something big for minimum effort.

People who actually do get away with this are rare.With some of the bailout talk I've heard of, it might not be as rare. ('Course, it might be just putting off the inevitable).

It's one thing if you found yourself in an untenable situation because of layoffs, catastrophic illness, etc., but, last I checked, "not doing math" is hardly an unforeseeable crisis.

Luris Blear
01-12-2008, 05:16 PM
Oh, I agree. Bailouts are bailouts, and I'm not for helping anyone in this case.

It will hurt the economy to leave them to suffer for what they chose to do. It will hurt it more to reward ineptitude.

When I said "People who do this generally don't get away with it," I meant people who look for the quick gain. It doesn't even need to be money.

And when I said without spite, I pretty much meant that. It should not imply any warmth either.

Grendel
01-12-2008, 05:21 PM
Oh, you mean the house-flipping, speculator folks?

Grendel
02-12-2008, 05:00 PM
Just spotted this today, and the way the NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/12/business/12credit.html?ex=1360472400&en=a855facd6a362658&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss) is framing this, is exactly what drives me up the wall:
The credit crisis is no longer just a subprime mortgage problem.

As home prices fall and banks tighten lending standards, people with good, or prime, credit histories are falling behind on their payments for home loans, auto loans and credit cards at a quickening pace, according to industry data and economists.

Until recently, people with good credit, who tend to pay their bills on time and manage their finances well, were viewed as a bulwark against the economic strains posed by rising defaults among borrowers with blemished, or subprime, credit.

“This collapse in housing value is sucking in all borrowers,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Economy.com.

...An example of the spreading credit crisis is seen in Don Doyle, a computer engineer at Lockheed Martin who makes a six-figure income and had a stellar credit score in 2004, when he refinanced his home in Northern California to take cash out to pay for his daughter’s college tuition.

Mr. Doyle, 52, is now worried that he will have to file for bankruptcy, because he cannot afford to make the higher variable payments on his mortgage, and he cannot sell his home for more than his $740,000 mortgage.

“The whole plan was to get out” before his rate reset, he said. “Now I am caught. I can’t sell my house. I’m having a hard time refinancing. I’ve avoided bankruptcy for months trying to pull this out of my savings.”You knowingly rolled the dice on a figure you couldn't pay and you lost. You didn't get "sucked in" to a damn thing.