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Searcher
03-16-2008, 07:01 AM
D.C.'s gun ban gets its day in court
Justices' decision may set precedent in interpreting the 2nd amendment
The Washington Post


By Robert Barnes

updated 2 hours, 57 minutes ago
Despite mountains of scholarly research, enough books to fill a library shelf and decades of political battles about gun control, the Supreme Court will have an opportunity this week that is almost unique for a modern court when it examines whether the District's handgun ban violates the Second Amendment.

The nine justices, none of whom has ever ruled directly on the amendment's meaning, will consider a part of the Bill of Rights that has existed without a definitive interpretation for more than 200 years.

"This may be one of the only cases in our lifetime when the Supreme Court is going to be interpreting the meaning of an important provision of the Constitution unencumbered by precedent,'' said Randy E. Barnett, a constitutional scholar at the Georgetown University Law Center. "And that's why there's so much discussion on the original meaning of the Second Amendment.''


The outcome could roil the 2008 political campaigns, send a national message about what kinds of gun control are constitutional and finally settle the question of whether the 27-word amendment, with its odd structure and antiquated punctuation, provides an individual right to gun ownership or simply pertains to militia service.

"The case has been structured so that they have to confront the threshold question," said Robert A. Levy, the wealthy libertarian lawyer who has spent five years and his own money to bring District of Columbia v. Heller to the Supreme Court. "I think they have to come to grips with that."

The stakes are obviously high for the District, which passed the nation's strictest gun-control law in 1976, just after residents were granted the authority to govern themselves. It virtually bans the private possession of handguns, and requires that rifles and shotguns in the home be kept unloaded and disassembled or outfitted with a trigger lock.

The law's challengers -- security guard Dick Anthony Heller is the named party in the suit -- say the measure has been an abysmal failure at cutting crime or stanching the city's homicide rate, and a success only in depriving the law-abiding of a ready weapon for protection. The District contends that banning handguns is a logical decision in an urban setting, where more guns would result in more killings.

The city's lawyers argue that the Second Amendment does not provide an individual right and that, even if it does, the amendment is not implicated by legislation that concerns only the District of Columbia.

Bold breaks
The case could be a revealing test of the court headed by Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. Roberts came to the bench saying justices should decide cases as narrowly as possible, but last year he was part of a slim majority that made bold breaks with the court's jurisprudence in cases both recent and old, on issues such as school integration and abortion.

Clues to the justices' interpretations of the Second Amendment are scant and cryptic, and Roberts said during his 2005 confirmation hearings that the last time the court considered the issue -- in 1939 -- it "sidestepped" the fundamental questions.

That is part of the reason that the outcome -- not expected until near the end of the court's term in late June -- will be so intriguing, said Suzanna Sherry, a law professor at Vanderbilt University.

"It is very rare that the justices write on a clean slate," she said. "In some ways, it gives them great freedom."

Levy and lawyers Alan Gura and Clark Neily were able to persuade the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit last year to do what no other federal appeals court had ever done: strike down a local gun-control ordinance on Second Amendment grounds.

The amendment says that "a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed,'' and all but one of the circuits that had considered the issue previously had interpreted it as providing a gun-ownership right related only to military service.

But Senior Judge Laurence H. Silberman, a conservative icon, wrote for a 2 to 1 panel that the amendment provides an individual right just as other provisions of the Bill of Rights do. And because handguns fall under the definition of "arms," he wrote, the District may not ban them.
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I wonder if Silberman is a "conservative icon" who believes in interpreting the law the way it's written, the way so many conservative claim to want, or if he'll ledgislate from the bench.
The Second Amendment the way it's written is totally useless and has been since the turn of the 20th century.

Grendel
03-16-2008, 01:10 PM
Do "bans" on anything ever actually work?

How is this even enforced, anyway? The cops report to a residence that's already a crime scene and write a ticket if they happen to see a gun?

I'd love to see just how many handguns are already in private hands in the District.

Searcher
03-16-2008, 06:56 PM
The same could be said of illegal handgun possession inside your car or on your person.

Knight
03-17-2008, 03:09 AM
Do "bans" on anything ever actually work?


Yeah, they do an excellent job of keeping things out of the hands of people who generally aren't a risk of misusing them in the first place.

Searcher
03-17-2008, 04:35 AM
Yeah, they do an excellent job of keeping things out of the hands of people who generally aren't a risk of misusing them in the first place.

Right, like that pesky ban on sarin.

Dr. Phibes
03-17-2008, 01:14 PM
Was sarin legal to begin with?

Knight
03-17-2008, 09:18 PM
Right, like that pesky ban on sarin.

Yeah. I'm sure terrorists and bad guys in general take into account weapon legality when plotting their mass murders. It's usually better to kill innocent civilians in full accordance of the law.

Luris Blear
03-17-2008, 10:02 PM
Okay. I didn't want to step into this one without thinking about it.

Guns were not used only by people wanting to shoot at pesky governments back when those laws were made. People shot food, made clothes out of their kills, and used them to survive.

Today they're used by welfare cases who weren't served everything good in life on a silver platter. They use these guns to simply steal those things, blind to the third option of obtaining them. I can see DC's predicament.

Organized militias? What counts as one? The intent of the law was still such that groups rebelling against the government specifically could not have their guns taken away. The people who wrote the laws used their guns to rebel against their government, and though the idea was pretty good.

SO -- Michigan Militia? The Crips started out -- no matter how aimlessly -- as a revolutionary group.

However, I feel the need to bring up the First amendment. State and community laws are left to decide the proper application of free speech in regards to obscenity in all but the most universal cases (children). While there are still limits, the smaller governments are still given some leeway to decide how those rights are applied.

Grendel
03-17-2008, 10:20 PM
The same could be said of illegal handgun possession inside your car or on your person.Those instances, though, you're still in public and open to a much greater amount of observation and scrutiny. Carrying a concealed weapon, you lean the wrong way or move your pant cuff too high while scratching your leg, etc. you're liable to get caught. In a private residence, what affords the authorities a similar opportunity aside from the sort of scenario I mentioned?

Searcher
03-18-2008, 05:31 AM
Was sarin legal to begin with?

Not the point, I was arguing the validity of a ban. Do bans work? Are you suggesting there's a formula of which the main and unchanging component being that it starts in the begining of time?
If we lifted bans on everything from drugs to weapons and sold them freely would there be a problem?

In a private residence, what affords the authorities a similar opportunity aside from the sort of scenario I mentioned?

Well, you don't anyone suing to lift the ban on coke or weed in a private home.
But I do see the point that A ban on handguns in ones home is tough to enforce, mostly because if they try to enforce it, even by legal means, they'll run into mountians of resistance from pro gun.

Searcher
03-18-2008, 05:45 AM
Organized militias? What counts as one? The intent of the law was still such that groups rebelling against the government specifically could not have their guns taken away. The people who wrote the laws used their guns to rebel against their government, and though the idea was pretty good.

SO -- Michigan Militia? The Crips started out -- no matter how aimlessly -- as a revolutionary group.


To what ends though? That philosophy suggests (truthfully) that a militia can, under the protection of the 2nd Am, rebel with the use of weopons and force. If the rebellion doesn't work are they still protected, or just Tim McVeigh?

Grendel
03-18-2008, 06:02 PM
Well, you don't anyone suing to lift the ban on coke or weed in a private home.Coke and weed aren't otherwise legal possessions.

It's a very strange law, indeed, that effectively makes it illegal to have a legal piece of personal property in one's own home.

Luris Blear
03-18-2008, 07:47 PM
To what ends though? That philosophy suggests (truthfully) that a militia can, under the protection of the 2nd Am, rebel with the use of weopons and force. If the* rebellion doesn't work are they still protected, or just Tim McVeigh?

I'm asking this in the same sideways manner. Do we really only want rebel militias to have guns? Who decides what a rebel militia is?

I had also meant to as about poor rural communities. A few dollars for bullets buys many pounds of fresh meat?

There is a point where I can see the DC case actually establishing a community rights issue. As I said, it already happens with the first amendment. It would let welfare/nanny states continue along their paths. It would keep the deep rural families capable of feeding themselves.

I would not be happy if it did happen, but I can see it happening. I do not believe that responsible people should be punished for the sake of wrongdoers, nor do I think that taking away guns will cure an individual's violence any more than taking away literacy cured any Dark Ages sins against God.

Searcher
03-18-2008, 07:47 PM
Coke and weed aren't otherwise legal possessions.

It's a very strange law, indeed, that effectively makes it illegal to have a legal piece of personal property in one's own home.

I'm still not seeing how it's totally unusual. Three wheel ATVs were once legal, and suddenly banned. Dry counties make it illegal to sell alcohol, a perfectly legal possession.

Searcher
03-18-2008, 08:04 PM
In all, some 64 different briefs were filed, from more than 80 groups and individuals. Among those supporting the gun rights plaintiffs were the NRA, Disabled Veterans for Self-Defense, and the transgender group Pink Pistols.

I'll bet conservatives love having the Pink Pistols standing with them.

Grendel
03-18-2008, 10:20 PM
I'm still not seeing how it's totally unusual. Three wheel ATVs were once legal, and suddenly banned. Dry counties make it illegal to sell alcohol, a perfectly legal possession.Can't say I know a great deal about ATV laws.

Regulating business sales and private possession are quite far apart, though.

Dr. Phibes
04-03-2008, 01:09 PM
Was sarin legal to begin with?

Not the point, I was arguing the validity of a ban. Do bans work? Are you suggesting there's a formula of which the main and unchanging component being that it starts in the begining of time?
I was speaking to it's practicality in terms of implementation, not it's validity, although I question both. I'm suggesting that it's less reasonable to try to institute a ban on an item that has been legal since the inception of our sovereignty. Perhaps not the beginning of time, but certainly long enough in our collective consciousness as a nation to preclude passing without strong opposition. Which we're seeing presently.

If we lifted bans on everything from drugs to weapons and sold them freely would there be a problem?
Is this supposed to be some kind of ironclad logic? The answer to your question is absolutely, there would be problems. Does it bear on the question above? Not in any absolute way.

Luris Blear
04-03-2008, 06:01 PM
I'll bet conservatives love having the Pink Pistols standing with them.Some conservatives view gay rights as:

Two adults making each others' lives better, which should never be punished. Not in the bedroom. Not with tax laws.

Separation of Church and State.

Or "I just don't give a damn, and can't figure out why anyone else does either."

Incidentally, Wikipedia attributes a large part of the group's foundation to a libertarian columnist. Personally, I never even knew such a group existed. I'm glad to see they do, however. They look like the kind of people who enjoy being alive and refuse to be ashamed of it.