A matter of Faith or Criminal Neglect?

[WarBeast]

WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.

"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.

Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.

The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.

They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.

The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.

Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.

The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."

The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.

Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.

The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.

The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."

The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.

The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.

I read this last night and it has been sticking in my craw ever since...

I find it absurd that these fucks aren't in jail as we speak, and if they'd not taken their daughter for medical attention for any other reason than religion, they WOULD BE!
They can sit there and say their daughter died from lack of faith all they want, but that's bullshit. That little girl died from criminal neglect from two idiotic irresponsible selfish worthless parents, who shouldn't be allowed another minute of time outside of a jail cell...

What angers me the most is, what about their other kids? What's gonna happen if one of them gets sick? Are they gonna just sit there praying until the kid dies like their other daughter did? And if they do, whose fault is it... the parents or the state for not having done anything about it after the first kid died?

You can call it a matter of a person's right to their religious beliefs, but where does that right stop when the health and safety of a child is concerned? These two fucks need to be brought up on criminal charges and have book thrown at them.

When piss-poor parenting results in the death of a child, it just sickens me, but
I'm done ranting now...

[Searcher]

I find it absurd that these fucks aren't in jail as we speak, and if they'd not taken their daughter for medical attention for any other reason than religion, they WOULD BE!

How bout if they couldn't afford insurance, or if an insurance company they did have found a loophole hidden in the policy so they didn't have to pay? I bet that happens far more than children dying from religious objection yet nobody goes to jail for that either. But I agree with ya, they should.

[deathslasher666]

:dsp: Truely sad. Idiots like this do need to be locked up. Even heavily religious people know that they need to take their kids to a hospital to seek medical help in a situation like this, as well as pray. Not just one. These idiots must not know much of what happens in the world outside of their coffee shop. Fuckin' idiots. Hopefully, they'll go to jail and the other kids will find someplace where they will get medical attention if something serious like this happens to them. May the girl rest in peace.

[WarBeast]

How bout if they couldn't afford insurance, or if an insurance company they did have found a loophole hidden in the policy so they didn't have to pay? I bet that happens far more than children dying from religious objection yet nobody goes to jail for that either. But I agree with ya, they should.

I used to work for the state, doing medicaid and such... if you can't afford insurance for your child, there are ways of getting them the medical attention needed.... if all else fails, take'em to the emergency room. You can not be denied treatment there.

[Grendel]

Legally, this is an exceptionally thorny issue. On its face, you run, headlong, into constitutional problems. Further, 18 states (http://www.azcentral.com/health/kids/articles/0809vaccineoptout-ON.html) already have exemptions in place for parents who want to opt-out of having their children receive the standard courses of vaccines. If you're going to allow that, which, given the contagious nature of these diseases, is actually a greater public health threat, it's tough for legislation that would address the case in the article to find purchase.

[Dr. Awesome]

this disgusts me. I have no problem with religion as long as it's not knocking on my
front door, the government uses it to make laws, and doesn't cause anyone harm. The fact that the mother believes the daughter could still be resurrected should be grounds enough to charge as clinically insane. There is no way those other kids should be left in the custody of the parents who obviously have a few screws loose. Beast I couldn't agree with you more

[toxicangel19]

i want my kids to get medical treatment (when i have them in nine yrs) but the only shot that im iffy about is MMR because it has been linked to certain forms of autism in children. thats my concern. And the fact that polio was made from HELA cell lines from a woman whom had cancer.

[pastor_ice43]

There's a difference between faith and insanity. There's a reason why god created us with means that we could understand through atoms, DNA, molecules, etc. He never intended to heal every sick person on earth, and thus gave mankind free will and a way to develop ways to help ourselves. I've heard of prayer and miracles saving lives, and I believe it happens....however if you hear of someone miraculously recovering from what was diagnosed as impossibly terminal cancer....chances are chemo and all other treatments were administered and failed before "faith" became the last hope. What sickens me is that this girls illness probably wasn't a roll of the dice like cancer is....if she would have been properly treated, she'd more then likely still be here.

[WarBeast]

There's a difference between faith and insanity. There's a reason why god created us with means that we could understand through atoms, DNA, molecules, etc. He never intended to heal every sick person on earth, and thus gave mankind free will and a way to develop ways to help ourselves. I've heard of prayer and miracles saving lives, and I believe it happens....however if you hear of someone miraculously recovering from what was diagnosed as impossibly terminal cancer....chances are chemo and all other treatments were administered and failed before "faith" became the last hope. What sickens me is that this girls illness probably wasn't a roll of the dice like cancer is....if she would have been properly treated, she'd more then likely still be here.

I pretty much agree with you... spiritual belief differences aside, I think your point is sound.

It reminds of an old joke...

An old man is sitting on his porch when the sheriff drives up and says "We gotta get you out of here, this area's gonna flood"

The old man says, "Nope, I'm staying... the Lord will take care of me!"

The sheriff drives away as the rain starts really hammering the area... pretty soon, the water is up to the porch.

Some police come up to porch in a boat and tell the old man, "This flood is going to get worse, we gotta get you out of here! PLEASE COME WITH US!!!"

The old man says, "Nope, I'm staying... the Lord will take care of me!"

Later, the flooding has gone into overdrive and the old man is sitting on the roof of the house, when a national guard rescue helicoptor flies up and hovers over the house.

The national guardsman calls out through a bullhorn, "PLEASE SIR, GRAB THE ROPE, THIS FLOOD IS NOT GOING TO STOP! WE GOTTA GET YOU OUT OF HERE!!!"

The old man again says, "Nope, I'm staying... the Lord will take care of ME!!!"

Later the flood-water raises even further, the house collapses, the old man is washed away and drowns....

Up in heaven, the old man walks up to God and asks "Oh Lord, why oh why didn't you take care of me?!!"

God looks down on the old man and replies, "You stupid asshole... I sent a car, a boat and a helicoptor to get you!"

[IKickAssForTheLord]

hahaha, pretty good joke.

[pastor_ice43]

I pretty much agree with you... spiritual belief differences aside, I think your point is sound.

It reminds of an old joke...

An old man is sitting on his porch when the sheriff drives up and says "We gotta get you out of here, this area's gonna flood"

The old man says, "Nope, I'm staying... the Lord will take care of me!"

The sheriff drives away as the rain starts really hammering the area... pretty soon, the water is up to the porch.

Some police come up to porch in a boat and tell the old man, "This flood is going to get worse, we gotta get you out of here! PLEASE COME WITH US!!!"

The old man says, "Nope, I'm staying... the Lord will take care of me!"

Later, the flooding has gone into overdrive and the old man is sitting on the roof of the house, when a national guard rescue helicoptor flies up and hovers over the house.

The national guardsman calls out through a bullhorn, "PLEASE SIR, GRAB THE ROPE, THIS FLOOD IS NOT GOING TO STOP! WE GOTTA GET YOU OUT OF HERE!!!"

The old man again says, "Nope, I'm staying... the Lord will take care of ME!!!"

Later the flood-water raises even further, the house collapses, the old man is washed away and drowns....

Up in heaven, the old man walks up to God and asks "Oh Lord, why oh why didn't you take care of me?!!"

God looks down on the old man and replies, "You stupid asshole... I sent a car, a boat and a helicoptor to get you!"

:lol: Thats classic.

[WarBeast]

:lol: Thats classic.

And it perfectly matches the point you were making, don't you think?

[RIP]

Children are routinely taken into custody by hospitals for treatments despite the religious beliefs of the parents. This seems criminal to me...although technically it may not be. Where are the pro-lifers on this one? They should be screaming bloody murder.

[FreddyKruger316]

I'm adding that joke to my arsenal WarBeast. Funny stuff. As for the story, I have no problem with people believing there some kind of a higher power looking out for them, but like pastor said, faith alone in cases like this should only be used as a last resort when all other medical options have been tried. As for making it a criminal issue, I don't know. I could see both sides of that argument. On one side I could see that there should be some kind of punishment here, especially considering that these people have other kids who may be in danger of future ignorant decisions these idiot parents make. On the other side should they really be labeled "criminals" if they really thought they were doing the right thing and in their own minds did have the girls best interests in mind? They may be very loving parents, they are just incredibly stupid. There is a difference between someone who intentionally kills someone and a case like this where we are dealing with stupidity and ignorance. I think they should be ordered to get some kind of counseling (then again when dealing with people who have such strong blind faith, counsling might not help) so perhaps they should serve some jail time, but I got to disagree with the lock them up and throw away the key mentality that you seem to have WarBeast.

[pastor_ice43]

And it perfectly matches the point you were making, don't you think?

Absolutely....all to often people pray to god for certain things...some pray for enough money to pay their bills and instead of seeing the answers in the form of charitable donations or a job opportunity, they expect to wake up and find the money sitting at the foot of their bed someday. Same situation, if you pray for an illness to be cured...look in the logical places, donations to help pay for the medical bills, perhaps your employer takes on a new insurance company that pays for things the previous one wouldn't.....but even though I do believe "miracles" do happen, if you sit around waiting for devine intervention, this sort of thing will happen 9999999999999.9 times out of 10000000000000. I'm not to sharp on what the laws against or protecting this kind of thing is, but as far as I'm concerned, there needs to be something in place to prevent things like this from happening.

[pastor_ice43]

Children are routinely taken into custody by hospitals for treatments despite the religious beliefs of the parents. This seems criminal to me...although technically it may not be. Where are the pro-lifers on this one? They should be screaming bloody murder.

Just as outraged as the next my man.

[Knight]

Classic shit War. Gonna use that one at work on Monday.

[Searcher]

The command that we should take what is given to us on earth is backed by scripture;

Numbers 21: 4 Then they set out from Mount Hor by the way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the people became impatient because of the journey. 5 And the people spoke against God and Moses, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this miserable food." 6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 So the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us." And Moses interceded for the people. 8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent,] and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he shall live." 9 And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.


Of course, so many religious people cherry pick what they want to believe and leave the rest on the cutting room floor.

[Vampire Lestat]

When people turn to God (the man from the bible...that God) for support and pray for reasons like to lose weight, receive money, health, or in this case the life of an innocent child, that's what you call brainwashed. There are people out there that you just can't reason with when it comes to faith and God. And in all honesty it's sad and disgusting that people behave this way. No matter how you talk to them and explain to them that faith alone won't help, in the end it doesn't really matter. They believe what they believe and now they have to live with the fact that their "beliefs" didn't save their little girl. It's a horrible thing.

[opterasis]

Feels like the Lisa Mcpherson murder (yes, I consider what happened to this kid murder) all over again.

[satanocat]

the very fact that the parents pulled this kid from public school raises all sorts of red flags. depending on the laws of that state they will more than likely be charges with criminal neglect. but not murder. it makes me sick to know that they just let that poor baby die. odds are that if one of the parents was sick like that, praying would not be enough and they would have sought medical attention.