Where They Went Wrong: Franchises, Trilogies, whatever

[ASoron0424]

I was interested in opening a discussion about where you guys think certain horror franchises started going downhill. The reason I was interested in this was because I saw Halloween 4 and 5 in one sitting on like Spike a few years ago, and I hated them both; but then I went to that Halloween 4 and 5 double feature that was in theaters on Oct. 30th, and maybe this was just the experience of getting to see them on the big screen again (preceded by interviews w/ cast, directors, writers, and the men behind the mask), but I got this much stronger appreciation for them, so now I'm interested in going back to the Halloween series, give them a kind of discerning look, and find where I think it really started to go downhill.

Hellraiser, I think Hellraiser III was its death certificate - completely destroyed the calm, cool, collect, omniscient badass persona that made Pinhead such a great character in the first place.

Nightmare on Elm Street, I think the second one was the last good one (aside from Wes Craven's New Nightmare and FvJ).

I'm not gonna go on, just wanted to give you an idea of what I mean. Where do you think particular franchises went wrong, and why?

[Gamefreakgill]

Friday The 13th totally went downhill after number 4

[BooBerry]

NOES went wrong after number 5.
Halloween went wrong after 5 as well when they added in the whole supernatural element. H20 was pretty good, but Resurrection sucked.

And um, the Leprechaun series was no good after the first one. ;o)

[ASoron0424]

I thought Jason Takes Manhattan wasn't so bad.

But yeah, I agree about the Halloween thing; the supernatural element threw everything off, and it's a MAJOR turn off for the fifth one - but there's something about the atmosphere of the fifth one that makes it one of my favorites. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it seems darker than a lot of the others. I thought six was a travesty, "a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of sham." A lot of the time when John Carpenter talks about Halloween and what he thinks about Michael Myers, he refers to him as a faceless being, just this kind of ambiguous embodiment of evil, and I think that really motivated the fear of most of the movies, that we didn't know shit about him. We found out a little bit in the second one, but after finding out he was Laurie's brother, all we really knew about him was his motive. I think once they started to give him backstory, the movies started to go down hill. It started in pt. 4 and went downhill from there. 4 and 5 are still towards the top of that downhill curve, but they're on it nonetheless.
Halloween: Resurrection doesn't even deserve reference.

[Wrathborne]

Well a lot of it is that studios dont give a shit about the product as long as there's more of it.

Being that so many people blindly watch these films just because they're there doesnt help either.

If you regularly watch crap like...black christmas, the ring 2, the resident evil trilogy and the Hostel and Saw films just because they're out and you dont have anything else planned and THEN complain about the lack of quality of horror sequels and films in general...thats pretty hypocritial dont you think?

Watch this crap fro free on tv is different but paying for it and them griping just doesnt click for me.

As this is a semi on going debate I know I'v eopene dup a can of worms into the topic. But its a factor as to why we have so many lackluster trilogies, sequels and series.

I relish the day when horror fans all get together and just flat out say 'no' to a film they dont want.

[BooBerry]

I relish the day when horror fans all get together and just flat out say 'no' to a film they dont want.

Which was....?

[JerkyPuck]

I think the whole thing that makes a series great is a storyline that continues itself without ignoring the previous entries. The F-13th series had a continuation in 1-4, then died. I think films like Saw are realizing that the story has to continue from the 1st film and that is refreshing....HOWEVER, if it runs out of steam, they have to realize that artistically, not according to how many millions it brings in.

[ASoron0424]

I think the whole thing that makes a series great is a storyline that continues itself without ignoring the previous entries. The F-13th series had a continuation in 1-4, then died. I think films like Saw are realizing that the story has to continue from the 1st film and that is refreshing....HOWEVER, if it runs out of steam, they have to realize that artistically, not according to how many millions it brings in.

Well, Darren Bousman, the director of Saw 4 (and I think 2 and 3 as well) said that he and the other writers know exactly where the saw franchise is going and that part six is going to be a difinitive end to the story.

But that's a good point, and I think you're right about going back and referencing past events, making the whole series into a continuous story, that always does help a lot. However, I also like when new stories are introduced with a bit of reference to past ones. Like Nightmare on Elm Street 2's reference to Nancy's journal from part one; or Halloween 4 and 5 referencing Laurie Strode from the first two - sort of semi-continuing the story.

[JerkyPuck]

yeah, as long as there is a mention. Although I love the F-13 series, it was like all these people were getting butchered and nobody knew who the hell Jason Vorhees was....you would think people would know by then LOL.

[Wrathborne]

Which was....?

I said I relish the day WHEN, meaning it hasnt occured yet...but someday it will. and its gonna be really fucking funny.


Might need to make alolcats shirt for this occasion.

"I'm at your home not watchin ur movie!'

[steelba]

The only horror series that didn't go downhill for me was Phantasm.
Well part 4 was the weakest, mainly due to the lack of a follow up.

[cmurdur]

I just can't convince myself to watch Phantasm 4. the series is okay at best. The Evil Dead trlio is probably the strongest thanks to Land of the Dead.

[ASoron0424]

Land of the Dead certainly was an incredible let down, and I'm not really looking forward to Romero's next movie. From what I heard, it's got a good premise, but he's like a child in that he just wants to work in guns and massive shoot outs into everything. Some of the greatest gorefests in horror movie history don't even involve a single gun. Romero's really really into gore, but tries to put a weapon into every character's hand - and I can see how that can be stimulating and add more to the excitement, but only if it's used in moderation, which he really doesn't seem to do. I think the Dead series' flame started to dwindle away with Day of the Dead.

[Freddy316]

Halloween went wrong with Halloween H20 when they decided to totally ignore the previous three films in the series. F13th went wrong when they added that whole body-hoping crap in Jason Goes to Hell. NOES went wrong with... nah the NOES series never went wrong.

[ASoron0424]

Halloween went wrong with H20 when they decided to ignore the previous three films in the series. F13th went wrong when they added that whole body-hoping crap in Jason Goes to Hell. NOES went wrong with... nah the NOES series never went wrong.

I don't remember which one it was, but one of the NOESs ended in an abandoned hospital or something, it had to do with a baby - it may have been the fifth one. That one was really bad.

No offense here, I think there's a risk of you taking it personally lol, but don't you think Freddy got kind of annoying about halfway into the series? His puns kinda forced? I actually think some people have a natural skill or inclination towards profanity, some people can just pull it off spectacularly, and then there are some that suck pendulous balls when it comes to cursing, and every time Robert Englund says "bitch" it seems so forced and wrong and I just can't help but cringe.

[Misfit]

Land of the Dead certainly was an incredible let down, and I'm not really looking forward to Romero's next movie. From what I heard, it's got a good premise, but he's like a child in that he just wants to work in guns and massive shoot outs into everything. Some of the greatest gorefests in horror movie history don't even involve a single gun. Romero's really really into gore, but tries to put a weapon into every character's hand - and I can see how that can be stimulating and add more to the excitement, but only if it's used in moderation, which he really doesn't seem to do. I think the Dead series' flame started to dwindle away with Day of the Dead.

you cant be serious about the fact he wants guns and massive shootouts in his films.

[BooBerry]

I just can't convince myself to watch Phantasm 4. the series is okay at best. The Evil Dead trlio is probably the strongest thanks to Land of the Dead.

Evil Dead & Land of the Dead...? Was I missing something?

[JerkyPuck]

I was thinking the same thing Boo. argh. It's the Dead Trilogy mah friend.

[Red]

Childs play went wrong after number 3. Granted Chucky wasnt remotely scary after the original but once you get to Bride of Chucky, the joke stops.

Friday the 13th went wrong after Part 8. While Part 8 itself could've been much more with a better budget and decent script, it was bottom of the barrel in terms of Friday the 13th but it still maintained the consistentcy of zombie Jason.

Friday the 13th can be divided into seperate stories IMO. The original is obviously the story of Mrs. Voorhees. Parts 2 through 3 are the groundwork for the legend of Jason. Parts 4 through 6 were the Tommy Jarvis trilogy with the idea that Jason actually was given a consistent Nemesis and he was male unlike the Halloween and Nightmare series with predominantly female leads.

Then theres zombie Jason of entries 7 and 8. Beyond that, its a mess.

[Joker]

Evil Dead & Land of the Dead...? Was I missing something?

My guess is that he's saying he would have gone with Romero's Dead series if it wasnt for Land of the Dead.
But,since Land of the Dead was a bad addition to the franchise he is going with the Evil Dead series.
Thats just a guess,I could be wrong.