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  1. #21
    Rotting Zealot
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    From the guy who learned Manifesto of Communist Party not Jesus: stop fucking this and that and accept that it's been a huge movement towards tolerance and "humanity" (more obvious result comparing to a losing fight against anti-Semitism - ironically, both Jews and gays were exterminated by the Third Reich and humiliated and oppressed by the Soviets). It's been a few decades ago! What's wrong with getting the same rights and calling it a different name? Leave marriage to "opposite sex" pairs for any biological and historical reasons and join us 100% for divorces. Rush is a good intention on the road to "hell".
    As for my smart Jewish ass - those on Folsom Street make more noises and make some to believe that decadent culture is more popular among gays. Where're demonstrations against public fellatios by the regular folks as yourself? I speculated that was a possible reason because I am from Bay Area.
    And why you fuck everything or everyone religious? I thought many gays and lesbians were domestic, nice and religious people. Why such a big love towards atheism? Atheists killed tens millions people last century - I wouldn't be so proud to be an atheist.

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  2. #22
    The Gay One
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    If you think that I am an atheist from reading that comment, you are sorely mistaken. Oh how I apologize for not being thorough. I am actually a Christian. A Christian who believes that church and state should be separated. As for your sincere obsession with Folsom Street and your desire for "normal" gays like myself to protest those festivals, I have one thought for you: United we stand, Divided we fall. If we are bickering with each other because of behavior, how will we ever get anything accomplished? I protect their right to have those festivals. Those are private festivals in closed off streets where you have to pay to get in. They are not around for just anyone to see. If you don't enjoy them....don't go. Or don't spend your time investigating youtube to find a silly basis for your completely irrelevant point.

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    "He's a real gentleman. I bet he takes the dishes out of the sink before he pees in it." Shirley Maclaine as Weezer

  3. #23
    Rotting Zealot
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerkyPuck View Post
    If you think that I am an atheist from reading that comment, you are sorely mistaken. Oh how I apologize for not being thorough. I am actually a Christian. A Christian who believes that church and state should be separated. As for your sincere obsession with Folsom Street and your desire for "normal" gays like myself to protest those festivals, I have one thought for you: United we stand, Divided we fall. If we are bickering with each other because of behavior, how will we ever get anything accomplished? I protect their right to have those festivals. Those are private festivals in closed off streets where you have to pay to get in. They are not around for just anyone to see. If you don't enjoy them....don't go. Or don't spend your time investigating youtube
    to find a silly basis for your completely irrelevant point.
    It's not an obsession, it's impression. There are wonderful festivals around the world that got nothing to do with sleaze. I don't think it's about freedom of speech. It's more like a statement - we can do whatever we want - decent and indecent in public - because we know NOW we can. It's minor but those images do not say exactly family values. Internet era makes everything different.
    My position is in the middle - same rights - different name. Not reactionary nor revolutionary.

    I know there will be another fight for humanity with those who are practicing barbarism (you know who they are) - we'll stand together. It may sound corny but the danger is real.

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  4. #24
    too many BANNED MOFOs
    Bo-rack Obama mutha fucka
     
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    Well I don't see how the Folsom Street Fair relates seeing as it's not an exclusively homosexual event, nor does it claim to be in any way. Sure there will be an influx of homosexuals there, because San Francisco has a large population of homosexuals.

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  5. #25
    The Gay One
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    Quote Originally Posted by lunatic View Post
    It's not an obsession, it's impression. There are wonderful festivals around the world that got nothing to do with sleaze. I don't think it's about freedom of speech. It's more like a statement - we can do whatever we want - decent and indecent in public - because we know NOW we can. It's minor but those images do not say exactly family values. Internet era makes everything different.
    My position is in the middle - same rights - different name. Not reactionary nor revolutionary.

    I know there will be another fight for humanity with those who are practicing barbarism (you know who they are) - we'll stand together. It may sound corny but the danger is real.
    Right...decent or indecent. When you tell someone they can't share their love at all....then they are gonna throw it at you. By the way, marriage does not equal family value. There are plenty of sexually perverse straight people in this country who are afforded the right of marriage. To me, telling me I can have a civil union doesn't cut it because you are simply telling me I am not good enough. The marriage law in California said nothing of forcing ministers to perform gay marriages. In fact, it gave them the option to refuse. And honestly, as a gay man, I wouldn't want a minister who didn't WANT to perform my ceremony on the grounds that he didn't believe in it to perform it in the first place. Believe me, if you were gay, you would understand. I didn't choose this life. I was born gay and every gay person I know will tell you the exact same thing. How does something you can't help hinder you? It can't, And people can't vote to hinder you. It's simply wrong on principle.

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    "He's a real gentleman. I bet he takes the dishes out of the sink before he pees in it." Shirley Maclaine as Weezer

  6. #26
    Crypt Keeper
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    What I dont get is..... why can't a man get a civil union with a woman? Can't straight couples get Civil Unions? Me nor my girlfriend are religious so why would we wanna get married in a church or by a priest? Why not just give everyone Civil Unions and those that wanna be recognized through the church or religious means get "married"? I could care less about having a priests blessing or whatever.

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  7. #27
    anti-social worker
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    Quote Originally Posted by badgonegood View Post
    What I dont get is..... why can't a man get a civil union with a woman? Can't straight couples get Civil Unions? Me nor my girlfriend are religious so why would we wanna get married in a church or by a priest? Why not just give everyone Civil Unions and those that wanna be recognized through the church or religious means get "married"? I could care less about having a priests blessing or whatever.
    Men and women do that every day, BGG. A straight civil union comes in the form of a municipally-issued marriage license.

    "Marriage" is a legal status as well as a religious ceremony. The faith-based ceremony must necessarily include the signing of a gov't marriage license, otherwise the couple is not legally married, their union not binding in the eyes of the law.

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    Last edited by Grendel; 11-22-2008 at 11:01 PM.


    Patriot, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to the interests of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerers. ---Ambrose Bierce

  8. #28
    I paid $20 for what?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    "Marriage" is a legal status as well as a religious ceremony.
    Ouch. If this is taken as a precise definition then legally accepted gay marriage also means the government is functioning as a religious leader.

    This makes a case for civil unions, however. "The government bestows the rights and responsibilities onto the two undersigned parties." The churches can then say whatever they want -- but they are not legally compelled to do or believe anything. Nor can they use their language as a means of beating down the people they disagree with.

    The important issue to me is the rights. Get those, and work on the name next.

    Also Grendel, Common Law Marriage can follow an uncertified wedding in some states. I learned (in a beneficial way) that Texas doesn't screw around. If you move in with someone and act in a manner suggesting that a legal marriage is forthcoming then you're almost as good as hitched. Forget GEICO -- I saved huge on my car insurance just by living in sin for more than six months.

    And again, this is why I believe that expanding those rights and responsibilities to any two adults who love each other and wish to commit each other is important.

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  9. #29
    anti-social worker
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    QUOTE=Luris Blear]

    Quote Originally Posted by Luris Blear View Post
    Ouch. If this is taken as a precise definition then legally accepted gay marriage also means the government is functioning as a religious leader.
    I see where you're coming from, LB, but you know that's not the implication, there.

    I suppose a more precise phrasing would've been, "'Marriage' is the common label shared by two separate and distinct things: a legal status and a religious ceremony/union."
    Quote Originally Posted by Luris Blear
    Also Grendel, Common Law Marriage can follow an uncertified wedding in some states.
    True enough. My experience with the particulars of Common Law in the applicable states is nil, so I was speaking more generally when referencing the necessity of a license to make a religious marriage legally binding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Luris Blear
    And again, this is why I believe that expanding those rights and responsibilities to any two adults who love each other and wish to commit each other is important.
    Hear, hear.

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    Last edited by Grendel; 11-23-2008 at 01:23 AM.


    Patriot, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to the interests of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerers. ---Ambrose Bierce

  10. #30
    uhm's only hospital corpsman
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    You know? One thing a lot of people have never really looked at is when God said "love thy neighbor"...you know he never specified on what type of neighbor.....So to me gay, straight, goth, tranny,hippie,stoner,whoever you are.....we should love eachother.

    For me this has always been a battle when it comes to gay marriage....im not going to tell someone they cannot do something when they have good intentions...as well as i wont tell someone they shouldn't do something just because its religiously diagreeable....at the same time ...sure the bible says homosexuality is an abomination..but he didn't say (as far as where i read) that gays where going to burn or anything....you could pretty much call most things in the world an abomination...so im not sure what that really means. All i know is im a gay loving christian and i would never want to deny someone's right to love...i know how much i love my husband and i could not imagine what it would be like if someone told me that i couldnt marry him. I feel for gays in that manner because i know what it is like to want to fight for something you believe in and if that you truely believe in something with your whole heart then it is damn worth fighting for. I don't think the gays are hurting anyone...they are just like everyone else who wants to be seen as equals and left alone. Goths and nerds are like that they get picked on more and made fun of more than any other kind of people (besides gays) and they just want to be understood and not shunned or hated.....but people still look down on them and are mean. I know that if i went to apply at an office and i wore black lipstick it would be harder for me to get hired...but if thats who i am i would not want to conform to the general standards...as long as i look nice and well kempt what would it matter if i had my nails painted black or had dark makeup? ( im sorry if that seems like a crappy analogy but i really tried to make sense.) Same with gays..if i was open about my sexuality (if i were gay) and someone didn't higher me because of their intolerance then that would be no different than the goth not getting hired...its bullcrap...i don't think gays should be treated differently...in my opinion its between them and god and no one else...so who are (these hard core gay haters) to say "hey yall cant get married your horrible!"????????? Im not saying I agree with it, but rather that I won't stand in their way of happiness because in the end like i said its between them and god and no one else and its not our place to make judgements on anyone no matter whom they are....sorry if it seems like it took so long for me to explain sometimes i over do it a little but i want people to understand me and not take what i say wrong.....im a very analytical person so its hard for me to make things short and sweet.

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    in the name of god impure souls of the living dead shall be banished into eternal damnation amen

  11. #31
    UHM Since 1999
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    A few troubling things on this issue:

    1) There is no equivalence between the rights of homosexuals to get married and the civil rights struggles of African Americans in the US.

    2) I don't see any legal problem with allowing civil unions for homosexual couples and keeping marriage with the same definition it has had since it's inception. That addresses the concerns about legal benefits of married couples and is consistent with the position of President-elect Obama.

    3) There is a disturbing amount of disrespect on both sides of this issue, especially the invasion of churches by gay marriage activists.

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    FrighT MasteR:one of da best additions to da board, in my opinion, having a place like the oath/dark mind for more intellectual discussions and analysis, and sometimes offering a lil comedy relief with da FrighT interviews

  12. #32
    anti-social worker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh Lederl View Post
    1) There is no equivalence between the rights of homosexuals to get married and the civil rights struggles of African Americans in the US.
    The history isn't there for a 1:1 correlation, but using laws to assail a specific minority group is what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh Lederl
    2) I don't see any legal problem with allowing civil unions for homosexual couples and keeping marriage with the same definition it has had since it's inception.
    Unfortunately, more than a few lawmakers and "family values" groups disagree resulting in state laws banning anything that "confers similar status," as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh Lederl
    3) There is a disturbing amount of disrespect on both sides of this issue, especially the invasion of churches by gay marriage activists.
    Which strikes you as more "disturbing:" the concerted efforts to promote and effect the disenfranchisement of millions of people, or a few dozen knuckleheads--completely in the wrong, to be sure--crashing a handful of services?

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    Patriot, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to the interests of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerers. ---Ambrose Bierce

  13. #33
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    To say that the law is "assailing" a certain minority is really only looking it from one perspective. Objectively I can't see how allowing civil unions for the legal protections and keeping marriage at its traditional definition hurts anyone.

    African Americans had no voting rights, no equal access to public facilities such as restaurants and transportation, etc. This is way beyond the gay marriage discussion and I suspect that is a reason that some African Americans may be a bit turned off to the efforts.

    This issue really doesn't impact me either but I think that the rights of those believe in the traditional definition of marriage are overlooked and I can certainly understand their point of view as long as civil unions are on the table. President-elect Obama shares this view as well.

    Also, it seems there is an "anything goes" mentality as to what behavior of permissable by gay marriage supporters during protests such as invading and disrespecting church services and targeting religious groups.

    The Constitution is pretty specific on religious freedoms.

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    FrighT MasteR:one of da best additions to da board, in my opinion, having a place like the oath/dark mind for more intellectual discussions and analysis, and sometimes offering a lil comedy relief with da FrighT interviews

  14. #34
    The Gay One
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    Teh....were you aware that thousands of gay people were killed in the Holocaust? Your history book doesn't teach you that. This isn't about who was treated worse, but I will tell you that gay people have endured PLENTY of violence. This issue is about basic human dignity. I agree with you that those idiots should NEVER have disrupted churches. We will get nowhere with violence. But I would like to remind you of Matthew Shepard, Harvey Milk, and countless other gay people who have been killed on the grounds of their sexuality.

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    Last edited by JerkyPuck; 12-02-2008 at 11:35 PM.
    "He's a real gentleman. I bet he takes the dishes out of the sink before he pees in it." Shirley Maclaine as Weezer

  15. #35
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    I never intended to say that gay people have not been persecuted, only that the legal issues around gay rights aren't in the same ballpark as what blacks have faced.

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  16. #36
    The Gay One
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    I see. I stand corrected. I think basically what the majority of gay people want is to be able to have our relationships blessed by the God if we choose to. It is not for anyone else to say that God would not bless them. We have to answer to the God we choose to worship. And that's another thing.....religion is the choice, not sexuality.

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    "He's a real gentleman. I bet he takes the dishes out of the sink before he pees in it." Shirley Maclaine as Weezer

  17. #37
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    It's a tough issue because many people who oppose gay marriage aren't anti-gay and support gay rights. Unfortunately even in this thread that point of view has been portrayed as persecuting a minority which isn't fair.

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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh Lederl View Post
    To say that the law is "assailing" a certain minority is really only looking it from one perspective. Objectively I can't see how allowing civil unions for the legal protections and keeping marriage at its traditional definition hurts anyone.
    Once again, the point is laws are being enacted that preclude either.

    Ultimately this will likely come down to challenging a state that refuses to honor an out-of-state same-sex marriage. The aggrieved parties will cite the full-faith and credit clause of the constitution--correctly, the state will hide behind the Defense of Marriage Act which in all likelihood will be voided as the violation that it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by TehLeaderl
    Also, it seems there is an "anything goes" mentality as to what behavior of permissable by gay marriage supporters during protests such as invading and disrespecting church services and targeting religious groups.

    The Constitution is pretty specific on religious freedoms.
    the Constitution protects against infringements by the state. It has zero to do with private citizens protesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh Lederl View Post
    Unfortunately even in this thread that point of view has been portrayed as persecuting a minority which isn't fair.
    You're right, persecuting a minority isn't fair.

    And it's precisely what happened, here.

    This was a targeted attempt to strip away access to a legal status from a specific minority group that already enjoyed it.

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    Last edited by Grendel; 12-03-2008 at 06:35 PM.


    Patriot, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to the interests of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerers. ---Ambrose Bierce

  19. #39
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    Protesting is fine. Protests that have violence, vandalism, or that invade a church service are completely different.

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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh Lederl View Post
    Protesting is fine. Protests that have violence, vandalism, or that invade a church service are completely different.
    Agreed, 100%.

    But those are all crimes violating laws, not fundamental rights. Someone busted into my church, I'd want them cuffed and stuffed for trespassing, disorderly conduct, whatever might apply.

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    Patriot, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to the interests of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerers. ---Ambrose Bierce

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