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  1. #1
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    Can Barack Obama close Guantanamo Bay?

    One of President-elect Obama's clear pledges when he takes office is to close the detention camp at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

    This is met with widespread approval from opponents of the Bush administration's policies in fighting terrorism.

    But will this be as easy as it seems?

    1) Where will the 250 detainees go? If they are sent to their home countries they will likely be tortured, which is one of the reasons Guantanamo was created in the first place. If they are tried in civillian courts they are unlikely to be convicted under civillian criminal laws.

    2) What will the law be regarding future detainees? Something needs to be written if there is no Guantanamo. Again, there are huge challenges with using civillian courts.

    As we have seen this week with Khalid Sheik Mohammed and contrary to popular belief, there are bad people in Guantanamo that can't simply be set free. Mohammed and others already are keenly aware of our laws and political landscape by their recent actions of contemplating guilty pleas if they would bring the death penalty.

    Obama has thrown this out as a no-brainer but there are many complex decisions that will need to be made for alternative plans for these detainees.

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    They could easily be moved into another federal facility tomorrow, but of course then they'd be afforded legal counsel and access to habeus corpus. This seems (to me) to be the only thing preventing it from happening.

    It should be closed day one as a gesture of good faith to the world that we mean business when we use the word "change."

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    Can he? Absolutely...as well he should.

    The closure of Guantanamo doesn't mean tossing them into county with a civilian trial.

    The only reason we've found ourselves at this point is that little to no thought was given to the ultimate fate of the people we summarily threw into a hole for 5+ years because the sitting administration was allowed to assert that we could do so, indefinitely.

    I don't doubt for a second that the government could format a process that would provide both punishment for the guilty and redress for any of those being held without due cause, while holding up under any challenge in the federal court system.

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    Last edited by Grendel; 12-09-2008 at 12:20 AM.


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    Problem is that no current law exists for the handling of such prisoners, unless you want to treat them the same as some guys that go in and rob a 7/11.

    So a law will have to be written.

    Not something that can be done day 1 as you say.

    Also not sure what benefit to the US there will be from showing good faith to those who gave us 9/11 and still plot today to destroy our nation.

    I suspect Obama will realize this, if he hasn't already, and will govern from the center on issues of terrorism. We saw this in his shift of support for the NSA surveillance program which he (and the far left) originally opposed.

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    No law needs to be written to move these guys into a different facility at which time Gitmo could be shut down.

    They should be given trials, and if no evidence exists to hold them, they should be let go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elduardo View Post
    Also not sure what benefit to the US there will be from showing good faith to those who gave us 9/11 and still plot today to destroy our nation.
    Beyond the fact that barely a handful of these individuals have anything remotely to do with 9/11, an effective judicial structure is demanded by a situation that will otherwise result in indefinite, unadjudicated confinement; something the United States would never suffer happening to one of its own citizens at the hands of another government, regardless of what he/she did.
    Quote Originally Posted by RIP View Post
    No law needs to be written to move these guys into a different facility at which time Gitmo could be shut down.
    Precisely.

    It can--and should--take time to craft the appropriate legal format, here, but there's no reason to drag feet with the more easily effected changes.

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    Last edited by Grendel; 12-09-2008 at 06:10 PM.


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    why dont we just kill the 250 prisoners??? and i dont wannt hear...oh itll cost 10000 dollars a person to kill them...let me do it...fly me down there...and ill put a bullet in each of their heads
    ill do for it cheap to, 10 buxz a person

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    Even in jest, a pretty repugnant solution, there, 3-6.

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    I guess I think there should be a different process for non-US citizens captured outside of the US for either terrorist activity or fighting on the battlefield against US troops. I don't think those are the same as some guy in the US that goes into a Vegas hotel to get his sports memorbelia back.

    I don't think these people should get free lawyers, resonable doubt, and endless appeals. I don't think the US government should discuss evidence against these folks in open civillian courts.

    There should be a better process than what we have in Guantanamo and to not have one after 7 years is a failure of all involved.

    I don't think Guantanamo should be closed until one is developed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RIP View Post
    No law needs to be written to move these guys into a different facility at which time Gitmo could be shut down.

    They should be given trials, and if no evidence exists to hold them, they should be let go.
    Let go to WHERE? They're not wanted - except Afghanistan/Pakistan border. You would let them go here, in America?

    Enough emotions, dear liberals - when you deal with beasts you got to choose lesser evil.

    My solution: if Obama is willing to satisfy fellow Marxists, he can let them go to... Cuba. There are a lot of assholes over there already. Then the Russian warships shall pick them all and deliver to Moscow, where they belong in the first place, to re-train them for the FSB great struggle against the whole world and common sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lunatic View Post
    when you deal with beasts you got to choose lesser evil.
    So when it comes to so-called "beasts"--for whom there is no evidence they've committed an imprisonable offense--the "lesser evil" in your mind is to indefinitely jail them, anyway?

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by STALIN View Post
    Let go to WHERE? They're not wanted - except Afghanistan/Pakistan border. You would let them go here, in America?

    Enough emotions, dear liberals - when you deal with beasts you got to choose lesser evil.

    My solution: if Obama is willing to satisfy fellow Marxists, he can let them go to... Cuba. There are a lot of assholes over there already. Then the Russian warships shall pick them all and deliver to Moscow, where they belong in the first place, to re-train them for the FSB great struggle against the whole world and common sense.
    It's the pinnacle of irony that at one time, here in America, people with your mindset felt exactly the same way about Russians, and that anyone living here that was from the former Soviet Union should be rounded up and put in a place like Guantanamo Bay... hell, there are still people here that feel that way...

    Yep, there were and are those who, no matter what you say to the contrary, would view you as nothing more than a Ruskie Red Commie...

    ...but, to your benefit, most reasonable people have figured out that not all people from the former Soviet Union are bad evil "beasts". They figured out that Russians as a people don't HATE Americans for their freedom... they just happen to live in that part of the world and are just trying to make their way in it.

    You tout on and on about how all the people that in opposition to your to opinions are just believing propaganda, and how you are an expert on this because of where you are from... you should also be able to see that you are swallowing just as much propaganda from the other side of the issue as well.

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    Last edited by WarBeast; 12-20-2008 at 05:58 AM.


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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    So when it comes to so-called "beasts"--for whom there is no evidence they've committed an imprisonable offense--the "lesser evil" in your mind is to indefinitely jail them, anyway?
    No, shoot not capture...

    All black humor aside it's time to re-consider and adjust to the new reality - we are not fighing regular armies and they are not regular "crime" criminals. Maybe there should be an additional justice system for that type of beasts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WarBeast View Post
    It's the pinnacle of irony that at one time, here in America, people with your mindset felt exactly the same way about Russians, and that anyone living here that was from the former Soviet Union should be rounded up and put in a place like Guantanamo Bay... hell, there are still people here that feel that way...

    Yep, there were and are those who, no matter what you say to the contrary, would view you as nothing more than a Ruskie Red Commie...

    ...but, to your benefit, most reasonable people have figured out that not all people from the former Soviet Union are bad evil "beasts". They figured out that Russians as a people don't HATE Americans for their freedom... they just happen to live in that part of the world and are just trying to make their way in it.

    You tout on and on about how all the people that in opposition to your to opinions are just believing propaganda, and how you are an expert on this because of where you are from... you should also be able to see that you are swallowing just as much propaganda from the other side of the issue as well.

    What the fuck are you talking about? First of all, if you talk about the Soviet Union call them Soviets - Russia was the biggest but only a part of it. People hated the Soviets? Good for them. Not enough, I guess. There were sympathizers too, you know? I don't accept the definition of innocence for those "who were just trying to survive." Indifference and fear do not make you innocent. Millions and millions killed, imprisoned, reported to KGB and made life of others miserable. In this content there is nothing wrong to use my personal experience. If you talk about sports and happened to be a sportsman you talk about it differently than just a fan, right? It does not apply to the Soviets only - Germans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Cubans, etc.
    I mentioned Russia because the Soviets were and Russia is the biggest supporters of Muslim extremists and is willing to use their inhuman ideology in their own interests. Plus the hatred towards USA, Israel, England and other Westerners is on all time high right now - I unfortunately speak Russian and read their forums (ordinary folks not putins and medvedevs.) Yes, unbearable Russian anti-Semitism did make me very subjective when I talk about them but it is easy to prove I am not exaggerating too much. Don't try to make me feel guilty for accepting the personally learned fact that Evil and sub humans exist and rule. There is no other way except facing them and fight.

    You are right - the Russians now do not hate Americans because of their freedoms. Until recently it was jealousy. There are many nuances and complexes that add to the hatred but it's a different topic.

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    Last edited by lunatic; 12-19-2008 at 06:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitler View Post
    Indifference and fear do not make you innocent. Millions and millions killed, imprisoned, reported to KGB and made life of others miserable.
    Who cares? If they're by and large beasts, then I'd say killing and imprisoning them is doing us a favor. Right?


    Don't try to make me feel guilty for believing that Evil and sub humans exist and rule.
    You remind me of someone...


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    Join Amnesty International NOW!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Searcher View Post
    Who cares? If they're by and large beasts, then I'd say killing and imprisoning them is doing us a favor. Right?




    You remind me of someone...

    You are right. I shouldn't use the word believing. It's more about knowing.

    And sarcasm is a great weapon.
    Especially when you know how to solve the real problem.

    PS. I know that many here so sure they are very good in theory and fair to the less fortunate, showing a great knowledge in the interpretation of American University Professors and such, never forget to ballbust those who they disagree with (I do) and enjoy "feeling good" over doing right shit. Thank you, guys. Without you it would be just boring for the old pervert.

    :nod:

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    Quote Originally Posted by lunatic View Post
    Maybe there should be an additional justice system for that type of beasts.
    Did you miss that that's precisely what the new administration is supposed to do, here?

    Quote Originally Posted by lunatic View Post
    the Soviets were and Russia is the biggest supporters of Muslim extremists and is willing to use their inhuman ideology in their own interests.
    Yeah, Soviets were huge supporters of the Muslims in Afghanistan, weren't they? And the Muslims in Chechnya? Not such great friends of the Russians, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by lunatic View Post
    I know that many here so sure they are very good in theory and fair to the less fortunate, showing a great knowledge in the interpretation of American University Professors and such, never forget to ballbust those who they disagree with (I do) and enjoy "feeling good" over doing right shit. Thank you, guys. Without you it would be just boring for the old pervert.

    :nod:
    What does any of that even mean?

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    Last edited by Grendel; 12-19-2008 at 07:00 PM.


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  18. #18
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    Haven't seen any Congressmen step up and volunteer to transfer these guys to prisons in their districts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STALIN View Post
    What the fuck are you talking about? First of all, if you talk about the Soviet Union call them Soviets - Russia was the biggest but only a part of it. People hated the Soviets? Good for them. Not enough, I guess. There were sympathizers too, you know? I don't accept the definition of innocence for those "who were just trying to survive." Indifference and fear do not make you innocent. Millions and millions killed, imprisoned, reported to KGB and made life of others miserable. In this content there is nothing wrong to use my personal experience. If you talk about sports and happened to be a sportsman you talk about it differently than just a fan, right? It does not apply to the Soviets only - Germans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Cubans, etc.
    I mentioned Russia because the Soviets were and Russia is the biggest supporters of Muslim extremists and is willing to use their inhuman ideology in their own interests. Plus the hatred towards USA, Israel, England and other Westerners is on all time high right now - I unfortunately speak Russian and read their forums (ordinary folks not putins and medvedevs.) Yes, unbearable Russian anti-Semitism did make me very subjective when I talk about them but it is easy to prove I am not exaggerating too much. Don't try to make me feel guilty for accepting the personally learned fact that Evil and sub humans exist and rule. There is no other way except facing them and fight.

    You are right - the Russians now do not hate Americans because of their freedoms. Until recently it was jealousy. There are many nuances and complexes that add to the hatred but it's a different topic.

    You can beat your chest all you want, but we all know the truth! You're just putting up a front to disguise the fact that you're a Red Ruskie Commie spy and you need to be put somewhere far away from us good god fearin' Americans!

    Take your hate and go back to your motherland, Boris...

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    Last edited by WarBeast; 12-20-2008 at 05:59 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Elduardo View Post
    Haven't seen any Congressmen step up and volunteer to transfer these guys to prisons in their districts.
    It seems to me these folks would end up in a state-side federal pen at the discretion of (whichever) current administration and the state department. Congressional lobbying or grandstanding should play little part in it.

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    Last edited by Grendel; 12-20-2008 at 03:02 AM.


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