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  1. #41
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    All I know is Jurrasic Park is not a an arthouse movie. :elstare:

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  2. #42
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    I believe 'Blood Sucking Freaks' isn't either

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  3. #43
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    Noise and more noise.

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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    Dude, all your examples above are mostly static shots. That shot of the raptor standing in the doorway, it doesn't take a step. It couldn't. The illusion would be blown. All of the practical shots had to be staged and framed in a way that you only saw a limb move, or just the head twist and move (puppet) or it just stand there with limited body movement.
    The raptor standing in the doorway lifts its head up toward the ceiling as it calls for the other one. Yes, it doesn't take a step, and I know it couldn't, but that shot works regardless. When Lex and Tim are crawling on the floor, you see the raptor's feet moving too. In another shot as they're moving, you see its head and tail. I know the shots are cleverly staged so the practical effects can be done, but CGI has limitations too. As good as the CGI is in that movie, some shots definitely show their age, and if they had tried to do every FX shot with CGI, it would've failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    All those constraints imposed on the camera due to the limitations of the practical mechanisms make doing the same shot CGI that much easier as well.
    Just because it's easier to do the same shot with CGI doesn't mean you should. The fact that CGI can be easier is what often causes problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    Holding up to scrutiny in such CU shots was a slight issue for the time (of the first one especially) and necessitated when it was most practical to use practicals, but not now, not for a while now, as evidenced by a contemporary example like Davey Jones, where you don't see a single bit of Bill Nighy, he's totally CGI and completely photographically integrated.
    Davey Jones does look great, but the whole point is CGI is overused now, and a lot of films suffer because of that. Look at Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull or watch the Star Wars prequels, The Matrix sequels, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    FYI, I actually know the guy that designed the full-size T-Rex and one of the principle puppeteers on the raptors and worked with him for several years. He's a friend of mine. Prior to being a CG animator for Disney he was one of the top puppeteers in the industry, including "Splash-Head" et al in T2, work on the Predator films, Batman films, 2010, Return of the Living Dead, Ghost Busters and dozens more.
    Then you should agree the practical effects are outstanding in that movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    For nearly four and a half years, back in the 90s, our lunches consisted of me listening to him talk about all the amazing work he'd done and all the horror movies we both loved and how different Stan Winston actually was from the public perception of him...and our similar tastes for progressive rock. The guy is one of the most talented and brilliant guys I've ever met.
    That's badass. Wish I could've been there. I really wish I could've met Stan Winston.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    My point is, you guys idolize practical effects to unrealistic extremes (often citing one of a handful of exceptional examples) while condemning digital effects based on mediocre and poor work. You don't really understand either craft as they truly are.
    Saying we don't understand either craft as they truly are is an egotistical assumption. We're not idolizing practical effects to unrealistic extremes. Sometimes, CGI is the only way to bring an effect to life, and it can be an incredible tool if used correctly (District 9, Starship Troopers), but the point is it's often overused these days, which results in some horrible FX. That's not to say there isn't good CGI, because there obviously is, but bad CGI can easily destroy a movie, and CGI does have limitations that we need to acknowledge. We are condemning mediocre and poor digital effects, and there's nothing wrong with that. Bad CGI really sticks out. I made a point while praising the practical effects in Jurassic Park that the CGI in it is crucial. Obviously, they couldn't have a T-Rex really run and attack someone without it, but a lot of people forget just how many practical effects there are in that film. Several unforgettable FX-intensive scenes have no CGI at all.

    There's more than a handful of exceptional practical-FX examples:
    John Carpenter's The Thing
    The Terminator
    T2 (obviously has some good CGI as well)
    Day of the Dead (1985)
    Blade Runner
    Poltergeist
    E.T.
    Alien
    Aliens
    Pumpkinhead
    David Cronenberg's The Fly
    The Fly II
    Predator
    Predator 2
    Gremlins
    Gremlins 2
    The Exorcist
    An American Werewolf in London
    Demon Knight
    Fire in the Sky
    Short Circuit
    Jaws
    Ghostbusters
    Backdraft (practical fire FX)
    Tremors
    Jurassic Park (again, good CGI too)
    John Carpenter's Vampires
    The Edge
    The Howling
    Scanners
    Man's Best Friend
    John Carpenter's The Fog
    John Carpenter's In the Mouth of Madness
    John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness
    Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark
    Congo (has some CGI too, which I don't think was bad)
    The Abyss (good CGI as well)
    Dog Soldiers (the one bad effect at the end is computer-generated)

    The Host has some pretty good CGI. It's tough to think of horror movies with good CGI. A lot of bad examples just come to mind. I thought Species was alright until I rewatched the ending. It's awful.

    War of the Worlds has some good CG effects. Obviously, The Lord of the Rings, King Kong, and Avatar have some good work in them (thanks Weta). Dragonheart was good a long time ago. No idea how well those FX have aged. I think The Fifth Element has some great effects in it. Stargate is another good one, both CGI and practical. Iron Man has good CGI in it.

    There are so many bad examples of CGI though especially with horror movies. As a tool itself, it's fine, and absolutely amazing things can be done with it, but it can obviously go horribly wrong as well. Of course, it depends on what effect you're actually trying to create, the talent involved, how much time they have, how many other shots they're working on, etc. but the real problem is filmmakers drowning their films in it and thinking it's the end-all solution to FX. That's why we're badmouthing CGI.

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostforever View Post
    Just because it's easier to do the same shot with CGI doesn't mean you should. The fact that CGI can be easier is what often causes problems.
    No, I didn't say that. I said everything that makes a shot doable with practical techniques only makes the same thing even easier with CGI. Easier than if it were unconstrained. There's a difference.

    Assumptions that CGI is easier is what actually often causes problems. It's not. That's a sign of not understanding. You may think my statements are arrogant but I find it incredibly insulting reading uninformed statements routinely about industries I actually know and find it terribly presumptuous to be told how "the biz" works by civilians. Just saying.


    Quote Originally Posted by lostforever View Post
    I really wish I could've met Stan Winston.
    Maybe not if you knew he liked to flick dudes in the crotch.

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    Last edited by BurnetRhoades; 08-16-2011 at 03:41 PM.

  6. #46
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    If the cgi shots are harder, and look worse... why use them?

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  7. #47
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    Wouldn't mind catching just one new horror movie where no cgi was used and just practical but afraid I'm dreaming.

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    Why put off until tomorrow to what can be avoided all together.

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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmywinks View Post
    Wouldn't mind catching just one new horror movie where no cgi was used and just practical but afraid I'm dreaming.
    Hatchet, Feast, Laid to Rest, Dog Soldiers, Pontypool, etc, etc, etc

    I'm not as steadfast in the hatred of CGI as most horror fans are, however I have MUCH more respect for practical effects and the inventiveness used in them. The limitations that practical effects cause often times force the director to be creative to work his way out of a situation. With CGI, a shot with actors is filmed and then the effects are added later, creating this separation from the terror that is almost palpable. The best CGI effects ever (as well as worst use of CGI) are the Star Wars Prequels the 100% reliance on CGI in EVERY SINGLE FRAME makes it feel like you are watching a cartoon instead of a film, when humans interact with aliens they look right through them.

    However I completely realize that CGI is necessary in many movies now as it becomes cheaper than having a SFX crew, stunt men, makeup, etc on a filming day instead of one guy on a computer before the editing process (which is the kind of CGI most horror fans complain about like syfy grade). The bottom line is that CGI is here to stay and it should be praised when done well and lamented when done poorly.

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  9. #49
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    You forget High Tension

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  10. #50
    Call me STRT or Street
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    no I didn't...it was in my "etc etc etc"

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  11. #51
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    ok n00b.

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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    No, I didn't say that. I said everything that makes a shot doable with practical techniques only makes the same thing even easier with CGI. Easier than if it were unconstrained. There's a difference.
    You're still saying the same shot with the constraints imposed by the practical effects would be easier if it was CGI, and my point is just because that same shot with those practical constraints would be easier doesn't mean you should do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    Assumptions that CGI is easier is what actually often causes problems. It's not. That's a sign of not understanding.
    You just pointed out circumstances where CGI can be easier, and now, you're backtracking. Clearly, according to you, CGI can be easier with certain shots. The fact you refuse to acknowledge the importance of practical FX in Jurassic Park is a sign of you not understanding. You're clearly biased against practical FX, which is no surprise at all considering your film credits (CG animator, digital effects artist) yet you try to cover your bias by touting your experience in the business.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    You may think my statements are arrogant but I find it incredibly insulting reading uninformed statements routinely about industries I actually know and find it terribly presumptuous to be told how "the biz" works by civilians. Just saying.
    If you actually read this thread, you would've understood the point from the very beginning is how CGI is often overused these days with subpar results (a point you should agree with since we're not insulting CGI itself), but instead to prove your own superiority, you presume to correct us poor dumb "civilians" about the real truth of CGI and practical FX. The problem is you make plenty of uninformed statements yourself, and you refuse to give the other side any credit. If you're not a civilian, what are you? A god? Military? You're a civie like the rest of us, and you're obviously drunk on CGI. If you mean you're a professional, you do have tons of impressive FX credits, but you haven't directed or edited any features. I've been paid for my filmmaking work too, and I'm not just doing FX. You're trying to do now exactly what I've been doing, which is make independent films. I respect your experience, but it's ridiculous you're so condescending towards other people.

    You were negatively pointing out the limitations of the practical FX in Jurassic Park, which is ironic considering you told Fangoria, "I’m a firm believer that limitations are maybe the best creative catalyst there is."

    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    Maybe not if you knew he liked to flick dudes in the crotch.
    You saw this or you just heard stories? I guess there's another reason never to meet someone whose work you admired. I love James Cameron's films, but I'm quite certain I'd never want to meet him either.

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