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  1. #61
    Rotting Zealot
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    HORSE SHIT. You people think because you're typing on a computer somehow you have some sort of understanding of CGI or what it takes to do it. You don't even know what you don't know.

    I worked nine man months in six calendar months to kill Senator Kelly for the first X-Men. Your talk of "hours" to pull something off amuses me greatly.
    You worked on that film??

    And tech's come along way in the past 12 years, things can be done faster. Sure, CGI takes time. But I'm pretty sure if it was more practical to use practical effects, they would be used more. I'm fairly sure most people like working with CGI as it's something seen as easier.

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkgod View Post
    Wait so your saying it takes basically the same ammount of time, And correct me if I am wrong but I believe you said it's more expensive... Yet 9 times out of 10 it looks worse then practical. So what exactly is the benefit of cgi?
    No, that isn't what I said. Try again.

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxley View Post
    You worked on that film??

    And tech's come along way in the past 12 years, things can be done faster. Sure, CGI takes time. But I'm pretty sure if it was more practical to use practical effects, they would be used more. I'm fairly sure most people like working with CGI as it's something seen as easier.

    It's seen by people who don't know any better as easier. That's the problem. Others compare the best of 1982 (which hasn't been close to equalled much less bested in horror for 30 years by any working practical FX guru) with K-Mart Digital (because that's the level that generally works on horror movies) and claim they know what's what. Fact is, the best work in digital these days could not be pulled off with any practical methodology. It simply couldn't. But that's work being done at the 100+ millions of dollars level where horror doesn't get to play.

    That said, it would be quite fair to limit all comparisons to strictly within the horror domain where, generally, the digital effects being done are trash. Practical FX advocates will likely want to preclude fantasy genre crossover stuff or else they're at a disadvantage again and getting into territory practical methods can't match (see: the crew of the Black Pearl).

    Anyway, yeah, that was me and the comp supervisor Claas on X-Men. I figured out how we were going to do Magneto's big anti-mutant effect (which I dubbed "the Lucifer Effect") and then spent almost every waking hour of every day for six months working on Kelly. It's only ten seconds, and they wouldn't let me do it "gross", but I put everything I had into it.

    It would be a lot faster and easier nowadays but back then I was using techniques that hadn't been used in a feature motion picture before. I got a fair amount of mileage from that which made me have to face my fear of speaking in public in a big way. Back then I still had serious anxiety issues.

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  4. #64
    Demon to Some
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    CGI versus Practical fx

    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    No, that isn't what I said. Try again.
    You have said in the past when people say "oh they use CGI cause it's cheaper" that it's not the case... Now your saying it takes long to do some of the effects... And I'm saying 9/10 it doesn't look as good, so I reiterate, what's the benefit

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  5. #65
    Rotting Zealot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkgod View Post
    You have said in the past when people say "oh they use CGI cause it's cheaper" that it's not the case... Now your saying it takes long to do some of the effects... And I'm saying 9/10 it doesn't look as good, so I reiterate, what's the benefit
    Faster, cheaper and easier it gets accused of. It's none of these. Not if you're using top talent and top techniques.

    The benefit is it's the difference between doing something that cannot be done, at any price, by anyone, via practical technique and not having it in your picture. Most effects in horror can, however, be done practically and it's the fastest, cheapest and best choice, ideally. When these aren't done this way, that's what most people have a negative reaction to. The rub is these types of shots are generally depicting deceptively complex natural phenomenon that only very specialized, high end digital effects artists can actually pull off and that's not who works on these (horror) movies, generally.

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    Last edited by BurnetRhoades; 12-19-2012 at 03:46 AM.

  6. #66
    Demon to Some
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    CGI versus Practical fx

    So to summarize.. In majority of horror films are subjected to using practical, because their budget doesn't constitute the use of good cgi. When they use the cheap stuff, that is when the casual fan harps on them. but that shouldnt be confused with the bigger and better cgi used in big budget movies.mega movies
    Can dabble in it, do to their budgets an make it look good.

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  7. #67
    Rotting Zealot
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    Well, I wouldn't say "subjected to". I'm reacting to an oft-spoken series of blanket statements regarding "cgi" and "practical effects". I likely should just try to ignore these kinds of topics but it's just not in my nature I guess.

    Just to be clear, I'm not advocating digital instead of practical but trying to correct misconceptions and gross inaccuracies regarding digital techniques. It's incredibly insulting to hear or read people put down CGI and the people who do it, the time it takes and myriad of disciplines both scientific and artistic that go into it.


    edit: I'd also like to point out it's one of my goals to contribute successful and entertaining examples of digital effects for horror movies. That's one of the goals for Goat Man's Hill/Spacemonkey Labs/Reel6 as an independent. Mostly to provide effects for projects we're co-producing that wouldn't be affordable by any other production of our budget or many times more but also, when I'm not doing that, helping out other filmmakers with the occasional effect they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford or be satisfied by what they'd get from sources they otherwise could afford.

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    Last edited by BurnetRhoades; 12-19-2012 at 02:00 AM.

  8. #68
    Yup
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    I'm willing to bet someone that does practical effects work will have effective and just as meaningful counter-arguments on this subject. Just because the general members here honestly don't know the semantics doesn't mean we have to totally buy in to what you are saying. Hell you could be right for all I know. I'm saying from my personal experience with movies CGI can't touch practical effects. It's my opinion and I am sticking with it.

    You have made points, but in a way you are kind of sounding like a Toyota dealer trying to convince someone not to buy a Honda.

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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxley View Post
    No John Carl Buechler?
    Definitely a good FX artist but I wouldn't put him on par with the three I mentioned.

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  10. #70
    Rotting Member
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    Stan Fucking Winston !!

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  11. #71
    Hey Sweden!
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    And don't forget Rick Baker.

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  12. #72
    Rotting Zealot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macready View Post
    I'm willing to bet someone that does practical effects work will have effective and just as meaningful counter-arguments on this subject.
    It would make for a nice change from the rhetoric Savini gives the fans at convention appearances (he's certainly not advancing his craft) and similar, repeated ad nauseum, platforms like Face-Off and Monster Man or nostalgic musings on DVD commentary tracks.

    Better yet, it would be great to see counter-argument in a film post-1982...I mean, there's a whole ten years between The Thing and T2 and the arrival of the digital film scanner, commoditized commercial software and workstations that cost under half a million dollars.

    Quote Originally Posted by shanebotwin View Post
    Stan Fucking Winston !!
    Was more a brand than anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by lostforever View Post
    And don't forget Rick Baker.
    Yes. But still we're talking history here and 1982. His studio's stuff was replaced, after filming, in the last three high profile werewolf movies that he contributed to. Sad fact.

    Maybe something will happen for Bottin before he retires.

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    Last edited by BurnetRhoades; 12-19-2012 at 08:39 AM.

  13. #73
    Rotting Zealot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macready View Post
    You have made points, but in a way you are kind of sounding like a Toyota dealer trying to convince someone not to buy a Honda.
    I'm not a kid with a kickstarter. You aren't my customer. I'm not trying to sell anything here. What I am is a professional with experience to back up what I say who also happens to be a fan of scary movies since I was nine years old. The later of the two brought me here.

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    Last edited by BurnetRhoades; 12-19-2012 at 08:57 AM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    I'm not a kid with a kickstarter. You aren't my customer. I'm not trying to sell anything here. What I am is a professional with experience to back up what I say who also happens to be a fan of scary movies since I was nine years old. The later of the two brought me here.
    I in no way said you were, just made an observation with how your posts have sounded (especially with the that was then this is now perception you are presenting). I also asked for something to perhaps show me how a CGI scene can in fact be as good as that Robocop scene posted earlier. Or has there not yet been a CGI scene to rival that?

    I don't doubt your professionalism, what the hell do I know? I just want to see what you are mentioning that CGI can do that, and look as good...if not better. I am simply curious

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    Last edited by Macready; 12-19-2012 at 10:23 AM.
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  15. #75
    Rotting Zealot
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    Davy Jones and his crew are infinitely more difficult to pull off than squib gags. They could not be done as convincingly in bright sunlight, full screen, with no place to hide, via practical make-up effects methodologies using the current level of that craft's materials and technology. They'd have been guys in masks wearing painted foam latex which might be a decent approximation of dead, rotting flesh but not of anything born of the sea, or alive and organic. Not in the light.

    A Robocop level squib gag is doable, it would just be so expensive it wouldn't make any sense to do it digitally except for some really extenuating circumstances.

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    Last edited by BurnetRhoades; 12-19-2012 at 10:41 AM.

  16. #76
    Call me STRT or Street
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macready View Post
    I also asked for something to perhaps show me how a CGI scene can in fact be as good as that Robocop scene posted earlier.
    I just want to say that there is no scene (CGI or practical) that is as awesome as that Robocop one. Not sure why people have such a problem with CGI, it's a necessity when trying to accomplish things that are "impossible" via practical effects. CGI has taken the place of stop-motion, cartoon draw ins (I have no idea what the actual name is, but think like the light sabers in star wars), roto-scope, and enhanced the traditional blue/green screen effects.

    Sure there's good and there's bad CGI, some directors delicately season a film with it, while others drown a film in a swimming pool of it, but IMO both have their places in the cinema of today. Back to horror only, as Burnet mentioned, horror films rarely have the budget to get the "really good" CGI. However, demanding that it is eliminated because it isn't lifelike enough for your particular tastes is a little foolish. Horror has long been the red headed step child of the cinema world and if this was 1986 we would be discussing how "shitty" the effects of Evil Dead were compared to Raiders of the Lost Ark.

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  17. #77
    Rotting Zealot
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    ^ what strt said really sums this argument up perfectly in my opinion. There is some great and terrible work on both sides of the fence. CGI gets this bad rap that it really doesn't deserve, I for one thoroughly enjoy and appreciate the movies that would not have been possible without it. My personal preference is a healthy mix of both cgi and practical effects but my biggest concern will always be good story telling and acting because that's ultimately where the line is drawn on whether something is entertaining or boring and un-watchable.

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  18. #78
    Yup
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    Confined to the horror world I greatly prefer practical effects. Obviously when you have giant robots in disguise demolishing city's as they beat the shit out of each other you have to go with CGI...and it looks fantastic.

    However for me, gunshots, knife wounds, creatures transforming, etc...practical effects are the way to go.

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  19. #79
    Rotting Zealot
    "I do not see why man
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanebotwin View Post
    Stan Fucking Winston !!
    That goes without saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by lostforever View Post
    And don't forget Rick Baker.


    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    It's seen by people who don't know any better as easier. That's the problem. Others compare the best of 1982 (which hasn't been close to equalled much less bested in horror for 30 years by any working practical FX guru) with K-Mart Digital (because that's the level that generally works on horror movies) and claim they know what's what. Fact is, the best work in digital these days could not be pulled off with any practical methodology. It simply couldn't. But that's work being done at the 100+ millions of dollars level where horror doesn't get to play.

    That said, it would be quite fair to limit all comparisons to strictly within the horror domain where, generally, the digital effects being done are trash. Practical FX advocates will likely want to preclude fantasy genre crossover stuff or else they're at a disadvantage again and getting into territory practical methods can't match (see: the crew of the Black Pearl).

    Anyway, yeah, that was me and the comp supervisor Claas on X-Men. I figured out how we were going to do Magneto's big anti-mutant effect (which I dubbed "the Lucifer Effect") and then spent almost every waking hour of every day for six months working on Kelly. It's only ten seconds, and they wouldn't let me do it "gross", but I put everything I had into it.

    It would be a lot faster and easier nowadays but back then I was using techniques that hadn't been used in a feature motion picture before. I got a fair amount of mileage from that which made me have to face my fear of speaking in public in a big way. Back then I still had serious anxiety issues.
    That's awesome man, have you worked on anything else?

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  20. #80
    Hey Sweden!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    Yes. But still we're talking history here and 1982. His studio's stuff was replaced, after filming, in the last three high profile werewolf movies that he contributed to. Sad fact.
    He did great work on MIB III even blending in some CGI very effectively.

    Regardless of his last couple werewolf movies that were plagued with all kinds of problems including awful scripts, studio interference, directors dropping out, etc. Baker is a legend and the fact we're all still talking about these films made decades ago proves the legacy of these artists.

    Bottin doesn't need to do shit. The Thing is perfect and the brilliance of his work on it was made all the more apparent by Hollywood's craptacular prequel in which they chose like morons to cover up all the excellent practical FX with so much CGI that it looks like a cartoon fuckfest.

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