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  1. #61
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    I prefer it when the actors are interacting with practical dinos, like when Sam Neill kicks the velociraptor in the head or Nedry and the dilophosaurus. Use the cgi for shots of them running or whatever. But Jurassic Park (and to a certain extent the sequels as well) used mainly practical effects. Stan Winston Studios ftw.

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  2. #62
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    The unknown director factor rustles me.

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    also, not a megalodon. That would be a shark, but what jumped out wasn't even a fish. What jumped out would be closer to a mosasaurus, though they made it way, way bigger than they really were. Turns out most of our assumptions of the more popular aquatic dinosaurs over-estimate their size.
    Thank you. I watched that trailer twice to see the "meg" everyone was talking about and couldn't find it. That thing was some type of giant croc.

    The CGI does look disappointing. That one clip with the Stegosaurus (Setgosauruses? Stegosauri? whatever) by the river looked terrible. Also the aquatic stadium the size of a football stadium is ridiculous on premise alone. The first film seemed like a real place with realistic things you would expect in a theme park. Not gyrosphere tours along dinos that could easily crush you or a huge stadium to watch one dino eat a shark. Hopefully they have more time to iron out some of the CGI problems but the plot just doesn't feel right for a JP movie from what I've seen.

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  4. #64
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    I don't know, I thought the trailer was alright. :shrug:

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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmurdur View Post
    I don't know, I thought the trailer was alright. :shrug:
    Not sure what people expect anymore. It is taking a turn away from the first three with a genetically altered dino which nobody knows what it even looks like yet.

    I think in general everyone's expectations are so high for flicks they themselves don't even know what they want. To me this is a movie made strictly as a summer, popcorn munch, check your brain at the door and enjoy the action flick. Funny, that's exactly what the original was.

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by CountOrlok View Post
    I prefer it when the actors are interacting with practical dinos, like when Sam Neill kicks the velociraptor in the head or Nedry and the dilophosaurus. Use the cgi for shots of them running or whatever. But Jurassic Park (and to a certain extent the sequels as well) used mainly practical effects. Stan Winston Studios ftw.
    That dilophosaurus looked like something from a theme park. It had the benefit of being seen in the dark, covered in rain, so it looked better than the tummy-ache triceratops. Bu it wasn't real looking in 1992 and it would look less real now shot on a digital camera. It was never alive. It swayed rocked mechanically from being articulated by rods and wires with no sense of balance. Watch a real bird or real lizard. They have precise control and dexterity even though they move very quickly. That simply can't be achieved practically because of the complete disconnect and sensory depravation in the way rod/wire puppets are operated (plus limitations in materials, excess weight, etc.) or, worse, the mess you get when you have a wire/rod puppet with multiple operators (ie. the Crypt Keeper). The practical dinos were used when and how they could be used precisely because of the incredible limitations and restrictions imposed on the filmmaker by their very presence.

    The most convincing shot of the full size t-rex had it doing *nothing*. Just standing there, carefully framed so you couldn't see it wasn't a complete creature. Its movement, when they moved it, was totally mechanical. It was better than anything that could have been done on that scale before, because they had special hydraulics that could simulate ease at the end of moves, but you still had a device that was made bitch by the laws of physics and without the intelligence and evolution in an autonomous nervous system that would have allowed an actual t-rex to move without needing to wear an epileptics helmet to keep from braining itself on everything from lack of good motor skills.

    It was useful and groundbreaking at the time that it could even be done. The guy who invented it is a friend of mine and he also designed the mechanicals for the puppet raptors and did one of them (the one holding Sam Jackson's limb I believe). Outside the obvious daylight shots and the stuff that's featured in popular behind-the-scenes stuff most audiences can't tell all of the time what they're looking at. On top of commentary from people who don't understand how either practical or digital effects are really made it's extra comical/frustrating reading commentary from people who don't understand the difference between pragmatic filmmaking and a treatise on what can and can't be done, should or shouldn't be done.

    The raptor head popping up through the ceiling tile was done how it was done because it was easier and convincing enough for the scene. It could have been done, even back then, with a rod popping up and this being replaced by a digital raptor head. This would have even worked back then. It wasn't done that way because why spend the money doing such a short, non-centerpiece shot in the more convoluted, more expensive way? Say whatever the fuck you want about whatever practical use, the raptors were ultimately scary because of the digital shots where you got to see them actually behave like living, hungry creatures with the convincing ability to actually catch someone. Hopping on kitchen counters, communicating with each other (Phil Tippett Studios FTW). Likewise, none of the moving motion-base t-rex shots ultimately have the believability and impending doom of the jeep chase where it emerges from the dark and chases down our heroes. I'm sorry but you're daft if you think a fucking mechanical head pushed into shit made these dinosaurs scary and film experience live so long afterwards. That's laughable. Fuck off.

    If any, ANY practical effects maker had the ability to make creatures and characters that could be photographed in any lighting condition (and look real, this means no foam latex), could freely move and interact with actors, could perform for more than one or two take in an entire day, could be photographed from any angle with a handheld or steadicam operator, could move like a living, breathing, organic thing operating by an intelligence comfortable in its own skin, then things would be different. But even checking off one of these boxes is nigh impossible because that craft has failed to evolve and get better. Practical techniques have not only failed to even try to compete with digital techniques that allow filmmakers more freedom they've failed to keep up with baseline camera technology and the need for absolute, unblemished, unadulterated realism when being photographed by even the shittiest of digital camera.

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    Last edited by BurnetRhoades; 11-27-2014 at 12:24 PM.

  7. #67
    Rotting Zealot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macready View Post
    To me this is a movie made strictly as a summer, popcorn munch, check your brain at the door and enjoy the action flick. Funny, that's exactly what the original was.
    So it's what you'd get if the makers of Sharknado had $200M to play with. No, I don't buy this cop out at all. Summer movies used to be well crafted and intelligent. The summer popcorn movie is what it is because of films like Jaws, the first "blockbuster", Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark and E.T. and not one of these ever, at any time, asked you to check your brain at the door. "Popcorn" movies became stupid because audiences don't seem to need to check their brain at the door because they freely walk around and spend money without ever checking their brain in.

    This is the summer movie audiences deserve, not the one they need. The original was dumb too though, so this follows in that tradition.

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    Last edited by BurnetRhoades; 11-27-2014 at 11:59 AM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post

    That dilophosaurus looked like something from a theme park. It had the benefit of being seen in the dark, covered in rain, so it looked better than the tummy-ache triceratops. Bu it wasn't real looking in 1992 and it would look less real now shot on a digital camera. It was never alive. It swayed rocked mechanically from being articulated by rods and wires with no sense of balance. Watch a real bird or real lizard. They have precise control and dexterity even though they move very quickly. That simply can't be achieved practically because of the complete disconnect and sensory depravation in the way rod/wire puppets are operated (plus limitations in materials, excess weight, etc.) or, worse, the mess you get when you have a wire/rod puppet with multiple operators (ie. the Crypt Keeper). The practical dinos were used when and how they could be used precisely because of the incredible limitations and restrictions imposed on the filmmaker by their very presence.

    The most convincing shot of the full size t-rex had it doing *nothing*. Just standing there, carefully framed so you couldn't see it wasn't a complete creature. Its movement, when they moved it, was totally mechanical. It was better than anything that could have been done on that scale before, because they had special hydraulics that could simulate ease at the end of moves, but you still had a device that was made bitch by the laws of physics and without the intelligence and evolution in an autonomous nervous system that would have allowed an actual t-rex to move without needing to wear an epileptics helmet to keep from braining itself on everything from lack of good motor skills.

    It was useful and groundbreaking at the time that it could even be done. The guy who invented it is a friend of mine and he also designed the mechanicals for the puppet raptors and did one of them (the one holding Sam Jackson's limb I believe). Outside the obvious daylight shots and the stuff that's featured in popular behind-the-scenes stuff most audiences can't tell all of the time what they're looking at. On top of commentary from people who don't understand how either practical or digital effects are really made it's extra comical/frustrating reading commentary from people who don't understand the difference between pragmatic filmmaking and a treatise on what can and can't be done, should or shouldn't be done.

    The raptor head popping up through the ceiling tile was done how it was done because it was easier and convincing enough for the scene. It could have been done, even back then, with a rod popping up and this being replaced by a digital raptor head. This would have even worked back then. It wasn't done that way because why spend the money doing such a short, non-centerpiece shot in the more convoluted, more expensive way? Say whatever the fuck you want about whatever practical use, the raptors were ultimately scary because of the digital shots where you got to see them actually behave like living, hungry creatures with the convincing ability to actually catch someone. Hopping on kitchen counters, communicating with each other (Phil Tippett Studios FTW). Likewise, none of the moving motion-base t-rex shots ultimately have the believability and impending doom of the jeep chase where it emerges from the dark and chases down our heroes. I'm sorry but you're daft if you think a fucking mechanical head pushed into shit made these dinosaurs scary and film experience live so long afterwards. That's laughable. Fuck off.

    If any, ANY practical effects maker had the ability to make creatures and characters that could be photographed in any lighting condition (and look real, this means no foam latex), could freely move and interact with actors, could perform for more than one or two take in an entire day, could be photographed from any angle with a handheld or steadicam operator, could move like a living, breathing, organic thing operating by an intelligence comfortable in its own skin, then things would be different. But even checking off one of these boxes is nigh impossible because that craft has failed to evolve and get better. Practical techniques have not only failed to even try to compete with digital techniques that allow filmmakers more freedom they've failed to keep up with baseline camera technology and the need for absolute, unblemished, unadulterated realism when being photographed by even the shittiest of digital camera.
    You can't get more real than real. So a real, practical creature is going to beat out cgi any day.

    As for the 'realism' of how dinos move, nobody has seen a real dinosaur so that's a moot point.

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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    So it's what you'd get if the makers of Sharknado had $200M to play with. No, I don't buy this cop out at all. Summer movies used to be well crafted and intelligent. The summer popcorn movie is what it is because of films like Jaws, the first "blockbuster", Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark and E.T. and not one of these ever, at any time, asked you to check your brain at the door. "Popcorn" movies became stupid because audiences don't seem to need to check their brain at the door because they freely walk around and spend money without ever checking their brain in.
    Somewhere along the line, studios realized they could literally throw any shit against the wall and pass it off as a summer movie, and it would sell. Most of the time anyway.

    Most of the time now with a summer movie its...

    1. Some movie based off an 80s cartoon or 80s anything, you know...back when the summer blockbuster was probably at its peak
    2. A sequel or remake
    3. A comic book movie
    4. A sequel or remake to a comic book

    And why not? People keep going to these movies and studios really don't have to give much explanation other than 'a fresh/vision take on an old idea'.

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    Last edited by ŔęĐ; 11-27-2014 at 01:23 PM.

  10. #70
    Yup
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post
    So it's what you'd get if the makers of Sharknado had $200M to play with. No, I don't buy this cop out at all. Summer movies used to be well crafted and intelligent. The summer popcorn movie is what it is because of films like Jaws, the first "blockbuster", Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark and E.T. and not one of these ever, at any time, asked you to check your brain at the door. "Popcorn" movies became stupid because audiences don't seem to need to check their brain at the door because they freely walk around and spend money without ever checking their brain in.

    This is the summer movie audiences deserve, not the one they need. The original was dumb too though, so this follows in that tradition.
    Although you are trying to disagree with me I agree with everything you said and your post practically backs mine up. This is the norm now, get used to it. Are you surprised or something?

    Saying cliche'd is becoming cliche'd at this point. I don't get why anyone acts surprised. Yet you have gems like Guardians this past Summer and you have just as many people saying it sucked as you do that loved it. It's the best overall film to come out in quite some time in my opinion. But OPINION is the main word everyone ignores...and you know what they say about that.

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  11. #71
    Rotting Zealot
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    Looks like fun to me. Was surprised to see Chris Pratt in the trailer, did not know he was attached to this, I'm happy to see his career booming.

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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by CountOrlok View Post
    You can't get more real than real. So a real, practical creature is going to beat out cgi any day.

    As for the 'realism' of how dinos move, nobody has seen a real dinosaur so that's a moot point.
    No. On both points. That's so naive it's almost cute.

    They're showing The Lost World right now. I switched over to see the dual-rex scene with the camper on the cliff. The mechanical dinos were even less believable than in the first movie, though the animation of the digital rex isn't as good as the first film either, because ILM's animators aren't as good as Tippett's animators for ultra-subtle realism. The digital dinos were shaded better than in the first film, because in the several years that had spanned the techniques used in digital effects and animation continued to improve by leaps and bounds and have never stopped improving yet the only improvement seen in the mechanical dinos was that they budgeted to build two of them instead of one, but they didn't move any better, they couldn't walk, they offered no additional freedom to compose or stage shots.

    The way the first film was done is significant only as the fact of how that film was done. Some decisions were good. Some were bad.

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    Last edited by BurnetRhoades; 11-27-2014 at 11:20 PM.

  13. #73
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    Seeing the trailer again it almost works as satire. I know it's not, but it's like it's taking a piss on the whole hackneyed style of the big movie trailer, down to bad writing. Putting out a trailer for the trailer only adds to the troll factor.

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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macready View Post
    Are you surprised or something?
    No, I'm not surprised. Find where I seem surprised. I'm stating that I don't agree that this is what should be expected, that this is all a "popcorn" movie should be. It's such lazy thinking. I hear it all the time. It makes me furious that it's come to this. This kind of bullshit is most of what I've worked on in my career and it got to the point that I simply stopped going to see my own work. It didn't help that the slimy motherfuckers at the studios stopped giving crew gifts, then stopped giving crew screenings so, fuck it, I wasn't going to spend my own money seeing something I already knew was going to be a turd. And then I felt bad for all the times my family would go to the cinema to see something I worked on, whether I got a credit or not, even if I wasn't going to see it myself, and then when they get into the industry I can't muster the interest to go see the turds that they worked on.

    No, I don't accept it and won't support it. I might eventually see it in one form or another, after it's out of theaters, but I'll not spend a dime to do so. On top of everything, these corporations have completely destroyed much of the USA film production industry and visual effects in particular chasing the corporate welfare offered in Canada, the UK, New Zealand and much of Asia. So, piss on their shitty summer movies that they sell to sheeple.

    And Guardians wasn't all that. It wasn't awful but I didn't leave the theater with the same feeling I had from the first Avengers, but that's maybe because I went into that one with low expectations, because Joss Whedon is a great writer but has never been a terribly cinematic director but the hype on Guardians was so huge. I spent nearly the first whole act of it wondering, "okay, when is this thing going to start getting good?" It picked up after that and I stopped letting it bother me that nothing made any sense though it was painfully, painfully obvious that they were basically just saving the cat.

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    Last edited by BurnetRhoades; 11-27-2014 at 11:50 PM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnetRhoades View Post

    No. On both points. That's so naive it's almost cute.

    They're showing The Lost World right now. I switched over to see the dual-rex scene with the camper on the cliff. The mechanical dinos were even less believable than in the first movie, though the animation of the digital rex isn't as good as the first film either, because ILM's animators aren't as good as Tippett's animators for ultra-subtle realism. The digital dinos were shaded better than in the first film, because in the several years that had spanned the techniques used in digital effects and animation continued to improve by leaps and bounds and have never stopped improving yet the only improvement seen in the mechanical dinos was that they budgeted to build two of them instead of one, but they didn't move any better, they couldn't walk, they offered no additional freedom to compose or stage shots.

    The way the first film was done is significant only as the fact of how that film was done. Some decisions were good. Some were bad.
    You've probably seen Jurassic Park so many times that you can easily pick out what is practical and what is cgi. That's just nitpicking, though. By Jurassic Park III, they had pretty much mastered it, and the mix of practical and cgi is almost seamless.. hell, sometimes I cannot even tell.

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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by CountOrlok View Post
    You've probably seen Jurassic Park so many times that you can easily pick out what is practical and what is cgi. That's just nitpicking, though.
    If you can't tell the difference between the practical FX and the CGI, that kind of kills your Argument of practical being more real. You can't tell the difference?? How do you know it's better.

    To be honest, I don't think either is more "realistic". I've never watched a movie and thought holy shit they actually found a giant monster. It's either that's a puppet, that's a guy in a suit, that's animation. But I'm an adult who entered a contract with a movie that I am going to buy into the world it's selling for two hours.

    Granted bad special FX can take anyone out of a movie, but what people consider bad is subjective as fuuuuck.

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  17. #77
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    I'm simple...I just want to see some dino's rip some people apart...

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    Last edited by IrishG3nt; 12-01-2014 at 08:30 AM.
    The UHM Clown

    I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity.
    ― Edgar Allan Poe

  18. #78
    UHM Emissary
    “I'm afraid I can't
    explain myself, sir. Because I
    am not myself, you see?”
     
    WickedNik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishG3nt View Post
    I'm simple...I just want to see some dino's rip some people apart...
    Here here.

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  19. #79
    Zombiefied Zealot
    damn status bar...my entries
    are too long for you:dislike:
     
    IrishG3nt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WickedNik View Post
    Here here.


    big fan of your sig as well there Nik

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    The UHM Clown

    I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity.
    ― Edgar Allan Poe

  20. #80
    UHM Emissary
    “I'm afraid I can't
    explain myself, sir. Because I
    am not myself, you see?”
     
    WickedNik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishG3nt View Post
    big fan of your sig as well there Nik
    Thank you

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